HC Deb 28 November 1893 vol 18 cc1900-2
MR. MACDONALD (Tower Hamlets, Bow)

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is possible for an extra water-guard officer to come up for duty at 8 a.m. and remain without employment in the extra men's waiting-room till 7 p.m., being meantime forbidden to leave the building without permission, and at 7 o'clock be permitted to go home, and whether for this day's attendance he receives no pay; whether it is true that an extra water-guard officer may come up for duty, say on a Monday morning at 8 a.m., leave the Custom House on a charge at 12 noon the same day, and be relieved from that charge at 9 o'clock the following Wednesday morning, after a stretch of 49 hours' duty; whether it is possible for an extra water-guard officer to be on board a barge on the river for an uninterrupted stretch of 40 hours; whether such a stretch of duty is of frequent occurrence; and whether at intervals during the 40 hours the examining officer visits the men, and reports them if he finds them asleep; and whether it would be possible to give these men a fixed weekly wage of 24s. for a 72 hours' week, and 1s. extra for Sunday work?

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir J. T. HIBBERT,) Oldham

I think it is a sufficient answer to the first paragraph to say that these men are employed and paid on an average for over six days a week. The case quoted in Paragraph 2 is possible though rare, and an officer so circumstanced would be in the position of an officer singly boarded with a right to all night's rest, and for the time in question—49 hours—he would receive three days' pay, 23 hours' leave, and other compensatory leave on the first opportunity. I answered a similar question to that in the third paragraph on the 16th instant. The men are entitled to, and do, take their rest during the night, and are never reported if found asleep during that time. I am afraid that I cannot hold out hope that further concessions can be made to the extra men in addition to the important improvements made no more than a few months ago after the most careful consideration.

MR. MACDONALD

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether officers employed on Gravesend boarding duty are often continuously on duty from 30 to 40 hours without compensatory leave; whether their hours average 100 per week of seven days; whether it is even possible in exceptional cases for an officer to be on duty for as many as 130 hours a week; whether officers if found asleep while on duty are reported and fined; and whether the Customs doctor at Gravesend puts men on the sick list suffering from over-fatigue?

COLONEL DAMPIER PALMER (Gravesend)

At the same time, may I ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Customs boatmen at Gravesend are frequently on duty for nearly 40 hours at a time; whether the hours of those on boarding duty average 100 per week and sometimes even 130, and men have been put upon the sick list suffering from long hours and overwork; and whether the Government can see their way to lessen these long hours?

* SIR J. T. HIBBERT

With the permission of the House I will answer this question and that of the lion, and gallant Member for Gravesend together. The cases of 40 hours' continuous attendance are very rare, and only occur under inevitable circumstances of fog or a glut of arrivals. But compensatory leave is given on the first opportunity, and is not lost more than once in six months on the average. In no case do the arrangements entail 100 or 130 hours' duty per week. An officer can no more be said to be on duty during the whole time that he is boarded on a ship than a seaman can be said to be occasionally on duty for four months continuously. If an officer is found asleep during his appointed watch, he is reported or reprimanded, and on a second similar occurrence may be fined. Men have been put on the sick list in two recent cases. In one an officer having his watch below stated that his rest was disturbed by the French crow of the vessel, who were gambling. In the other case the officer was put on the sick list on his own statement, which was found on inquiry to be false, as he had been cleared 14 hours and had had rest all night in his own home.

MR. J. BURNS (Battersea)

Arising out of the answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, considering the partial promise he gave on the discussion of this matter three or four months ago, he cannot see his way to so re-arranging the working hours so as to preclude the possibility of any man being on duty for so long a, stretch as 40 hours?

* SIR J. T. HIBBERT

I have referred this question to the Chairman of the Board of Customs, and he has informed me that it is quite impossible to alter the system. He adds that the men are not on actual duty for 40 hours. They are placed on board a vessel, but are allowed meal times and certain hours for sleep. They are, in fact, in no different position to a sailor on board the vessel.

COLONEL DAMPIER PALMER

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men, notwithstanding the length of hours, are not permitted to leave the deck for any time, and that several of them have been fined heavily and even suspended in consequence of their drowsiness?

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

Of course, if they are on watch they are not permitted to leave the deck. But otherwise they are allowed to go below to sleep.

* MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)

Ave the men on watch and watch—that is, four hours on duty on deck and four hours below?

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

There is a system of so many hours on watch and so many below, it is for sleeping while on watch that the men are fined.

COLONEL DAMPIER PALMER

Will the Government inquire into the circumstances with a view to shortening the hours?

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

I have already made inquiry.

MR. J. BURNS

Could not some arrangement be made with the Admiralty to secure a different system?

* SIR J. T. HIBBERT

I will consider any suggestions for improvement in the system.

MR. KEIR-HARDIE (West Ham, S.)

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire of the men as well as of the chief Customs officer?

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

If the men choose to send any statement to me I shall be glad to receive it.