HC Deb 06 November 1893 vol 18 cc219-22
CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W.)

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies what policy the Government intends to pursue with reference to Matabeleland?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. S. BUXTON,) Tower Hamlets, Poplar

I am not yet in a position to make a statement on the subject.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the capital of Lobengula is said to have been taken, his Army defeated, and he himself a fugitive, immediate steps will be taken to prevent any further slaughter of the Matabeles by the forces of the Chartered Company, and to render the future of Matabeleland, in its relation to the Empire, being prejudiced by any seizure of land or assumption of jurisdiction in that country by the Company?

MR. S. BUXTON

The latest information appears to show that Lobengula is not a fugitive, and that he is still conducting hostilities, so that the war cannot be said to be at an end. Meanwhile, no action taken on the spot will prejudice the final decision that may be come to in regard to the future of Matabeleland.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Do I understand that the Chartered Company have been notified that they must exercise no sort of jurisdiction in Matabeleland, or do any act which will lead to their actual possession of the country? As the hon. Gentleman knows, possession is nine points of the law.

MR. S. BUXTON

Yes; the Company are being notified that no action taken on the spot will prejudice any future arrangements that may be come to.

MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll)

Is Matabeleland at present under the jurisdiction of the South Africa Company by their Charter? Is it included in the sphere of action defined by the Charter?

MR. S. BUXTON

Under the Lippert Concession Lobengula granted to Mr. Lippert a concession over all the lands throughout his Kingdom. That concession has been acquired by the Chartered Company. There are certain words in it which throw some doubt as to how far that concession actually extended. But that is rather a legal question, which I am not capable of answering.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Are the words, "Within the sphere of the operations of the Company"?

MR. S. BUXTON

Yes; and any further sphere of operations which they may afterwards acquire, or words to that effect.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Then if the hon. Gentleman gives me permission to occupy some unoccupied land belonging to him in Scotland on the ground——

* MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!

MR. DARLING (Deptford)

Has the hon. Gentleman any information as to the fate of Captain Williams?

MR. S. BUXTON

I regret to say I have not.

MR. MACFARLANE

The hon. Gentleman has not replied to my question. Is Matabeleland included in the Charter of the South Africa Company?

MR. S. BUXTON

I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to mean whether Matabeleland, as well as Mashonaland, is within the sphere of operations under the Charter?

MR. MACFARLANE

Yes.

MR. S. BUXTON

Yes, that is so.

MR. LABOUCHERE

May I ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a day will he given for the discussion of matters relating to Matabeleland?

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE,) Edinburgh, Midlothian

The Government have no intention of proposing to the House to devote a day for the purpose of the discussion of affairs in Matabeleland.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I beg to give notice that on the earliest convenient opportunity, which it seems to me will probably be about Thursday, I shall take the usual steps to endeavour to obtain a day.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the statement in the Pall Mall Gazette of Tuesday, that the Bechuanaland Police under Colonel Goold-Adams are not to proceed further than the Ramakahane River, is correct; and, if true, whether this halt is due to orders from the Imperial Government, and what was the date of such orders?

MR. S. BUXTON

No, Sir; the statement is not correct. The primary object of the advance of the Commandant of the Bechuanaland Mounted Police Force was for the defence of the Bechuanaland Protectorate, which was threatened; and, secondly, to create a diversion in favour of the Company's forces advancing from the East.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

Are we to understand that the Bechuanaland Police were not forbidden to enter Matabeleland by the Government?

MR. S. BUXTON

Yes, Sir; they were not forbidden.