HC Deb 21 March 1892 vol 2 cc1327-30
MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM (Lanark, N.W.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what number of rifles were manufactured for the Government at the Small Arms Factories at Sparkbrook, Small Heath, Old Ford, for the years 1884, 1885, 1886, 1887, and 1888 respectively?

SIR JOHN COLOMB (, &c.) Tower Hamlets, Bow

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I, in accordance with private notice, ask him if he is aware that a sum of over £100,000 was expended on plant at Bow Small Arms Factory in 1888 in order to increase the output and to meet the requirements of the War Office contracts for the new pattern rifle; whether the delivery per week from this establishment, in common with similar factories, has recently been reduced by order of the War Office; and whether, in view of these facts, and having regard to the large number of skilled workmen employed by this private firm in a densely populated district of East London, he will give an assurance that agitation on behalf of Enfield shall not be permitted to override the legitimate claims of private enterprise and of the workmen employed at the Small Arms Factory at Bow?

MR. J. ROWLANDS (Finsbury, E.)

Before he answers that question I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us who are the owners of the Small Arms Factory at Old Ford?

MR. E. STANHOPE

The rifles made in the establishment at the Small Heath Factory in the years named averaged 18,200 a year, and at Old Ford they averaged 11,600. None were made at Sparkbrook. I am aware that a large sum of money has been expended within the last two years on plant by the Bow Small Arms Factory to enable it to carry out Government contracts. The rate of delivery has recently been reduced under orders from the War Office, as it has been for other similar establishments. The rate now fixed is under the terms of the contract, and I can give the assurance asked for by my hon. Friend. With regard to the question of which the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fins-bury has given me private notice, I am not able to give him any information.

MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM

Can rifles not be turned out more cheaply and more quickly at Enfield than by any private firm; and, in the next place, can they not be made more strongly at Enfield and the work be better done there?

MR. E. STANHOPE

Certainly, Sir, I could not say that the rifles manufactured at Enfield are better than those made by private firms, but we do make them at a cheaper price than is done by the trade.

MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM

Then, Sir, what is the reason for giving those private firms these contracts? I presume the conditions under which the men Work in private factories are not equal to those under which they work in Government factories?

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN (Birmingham, W.)

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to add something to his previous reply, and to state specifically whether, when he says that the rifles manufactured at Enfield are cheaper than those manufactured by private firms he has taken into account all the money expended at Enfield in the way of capital for plant, and so forth.

MR. E. STANHOPE

Yes, Sir; that is so. Everything that can fairly be taken into consideration has been taken, and, comparing the ordnance factories with the private trade, the former turn out the rifles cheaper. With regard to the question of the hon. Gentleman opposite, I am afraid I could not answer it without going into greater explanation than is ordinarily permitted in answer to a question. But, Sir, on four or five occasions I have already explained to the House that it is the policy of the Government now, as it always has been, to keep a certain amount of private trade available, in order that when some sudden emergency arises we may be able to get some arms from private factories, as well as from the ordnance factories.

MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM

Is it not a fact that within the last two or three months a large number of men have been discharged from the Small Arms Factory; and how does the right hon. Gentleman make that fact agree with his statement that it is necessary to give contracts to private firms, in order that sufficient rifles may be obtained in cases of emergency?

MR. E. STANHOPE

Some men have been discharged; but, as I have already explained, they have been discharged equally by all establishments employed by the Government for the manufacture of rifles.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

Then, Sir, in reference to the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, I would wish to ask whether he would have any objection to allowing a Committee to investigate the comparative cost of rifles manufactured in private establishments and those manufactured in Government factories.

MR. E. STANHOPE

I shall, of course, be very glad indeed to give the right hon. Gentleman all the information at my disposal. If, after receiving that information, the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is not satisfactory, I would be perfectly ready to consider whether any further steps should be taken in the direction which he suggests.

MR. J. ROWLANDS

Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would consent to the preparation of a Return which could be laid upon the Table showing how many Members of the House are persons interested in private firms employed by the Government for the manufacture of arms?

MR. E. STANHOPE

I am afraid, Sir, that is an inquiry to which I could not agree. If similar steps were taken with reference to all the contracts into which the Government enter they would, I fancy, supply some very curious results.