HC Deb 22 March 1889 vol 334 cc521-4
LORD R. CHURCHILL (Paddington, S.)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it was the fact that the money expended upon armaments and new construction in the year 1888–89, as set forth on pages 102 and 159 of the Navy Estimates, 1889–90, if continued for five years, would have amounted to £22,748,250, or, in other words, would have exceeded the estimated expenditure under the new programme by about one million and a quarter?

MR. R. W. DUFF (Banff)

asked whether the Return moved for by the noble Lord would be in the hands of Members before the Navy Votes were proceeded with?

THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. FORWOOD,) Lancashire, Ormskirk

In answer to the last question, I may say that I hope the Return will be in the hands of Members on Monday, or, at the latest, on Tuesday next. My noble Friend has in his question fallen into an error similar to the one where he assumed that the whole of the Shipbuilding Vote was available for new construction alone. He asks me if the amounts provided under the Ordnance Vote of 1888–89—namely, £1,863,500 (which, I think, is the highest figure ever reached) would, if added to the expenditure of that year on new construction—namely, £2,686,150, produce in five years the sum of £22,748,250, or one million and a quarter in excess of the total estimated cost of the new programme. As an arithmetical calculation his figures are correct, but his deductions are erroneous. The new programme of shipbuilding and its armament only absorbs a portion of the provision that has to be made under the Shipbuilding and Ordnance Votes during the next five years. The ships now building and completing have also to be finished at an estimated cost of £1,500,000, excluding cost of armament. This is quite independent of the new programme. The new programme will gradually come to a conclusion during the years 1893–94, and provision is proposed to be made of a sum of £3,000,000 available for new ships to be then commenced. Adding the sums together, we have a sum of £4,500,000 over and above the cost of the construction of the ships in the new programme. The Ordnance Vote stands at £1,463,000, and, multiplying this by five, we have a figure of £7,317,500 available during the next five years. Of this sum only £2,850,000 is required for the armament of ships in the new programme, leaving a balance of £4,467,500 which is necessary to complete the armament of these ships now building, to provide the ordinary requirements of the Fleet, and to meet the large arrears of past years in stores and guns. Adding to the £21,500,000, which is the cost of the new programme, the sums I have named—viz., £4,500,000 and £4,467,500, we have to provide for a total approximate outlay of 30 millions and a-half in new construction and under the Ordnance Vote during the next five years.

LORD C. BERESFORD (Marylebone, E.)

May I ask my hon. Friend whether I am correct in stating that the actual net increase of the Shipbuilding Vote, over and above what is called the waste, which the First Lord of the Admiralty put down as £1,800,000 in the statement of 1877, the actual increase proposed at this moment, taking the armaments out of it, is £9,635,000 for the next five years?

MR. FORWOOD

I must ask for notice of the question. I think the information is included in the Return moved for by the noble Lord the Member for Paddington.

LORD R. CHURCHILL

When I have thoroughly mastered the answer which the Secretary to the Admiralty has given I shall put a further question. I beg now to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can explain the difference between the figures of expenditure on new programme and ships in progress shown in his Memorandum of 8th March, and the figures of expenditure on new programme and ships in progress shown on page 159 of the Navy Estimates of this year, and which of the documents is authentic and accurate?

MR. FORWOOD

Both statements are correct. The one in the Memorandum refers to money to be voted, and the other to the value of stores and labour to be expended. The difference between the amounts estimated as required to complete ships in progress as shown in the Estimates (page 159) and that given in the Memorandum of 8th March, arises from payments being included on account of gun mountings and fittings, &c., which will not be completed in 1889–90, and therefore cannot appear in the expense accounts to the debit of the ships as expenditure in that year, provision for which has, however, to be made under Vote 8 in 1889–90. The amount shown on the Memorandum for new construction in the Dockyards—viz., £2,650,000, is the maximum amount of expenditure proposed to be allowed in the Bill which my noble Friend hopes to be allowed to introduce in the course of a few days.