§ MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, early in July, Sergeant Joyce of the Royal Irish Constabulary, stationed at Kilmacoliver Barracks, and other policemen, tore down placards posted in and about Windgap, County Kilkenny, convening a meeting of the Windgap Branch of the National League; whether the police acted under orders; whether it is alleged that the said poster is illegal; and, if so, what part of the contents is objected to; whether any person has been prosecuted for posting the same; and, whether the police will be punished for tearing down the said poster? I wish to add that my Question as handed in contained the contents of the placard, and that that portion has been expunged at the Table.
§ THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)Sergeant Joyce tore down two placards of the kind described. He acted in the discharge of his duty. The language used was calculated to disturb the public peace. The action of Serjeant Joyce was approved by his superiors. No person is to be prosecuted for posting the placard.
§ MR. CHANCEWill the right hon. Gentleman, who has a copy of the placard in his hand, be good enough to state to the House what the objectionable contents of the placard are? [Cries of "Read !"] I do not know whether I would be in Order in stating the contents of the placard in the form of a Question addressed to the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe reason why I refused to allow that placard to appear is, that of late a very large number of 43 Questions have been given in containing a very large quantity of matter to be printed; and it was so overloading the Paper that I thought it right to stop the insertion of anonymous extracts from papers, and not to trouble the House with them.
§ MR. CHANCEWell, Sir; I would ask you whether I would be in Order now in stating the contents of the placard, in a Question addressed to the right hon. Gentleman, asking him whether I am truly stating the contents?
§ MR. SPEAKERIt would be quite sufficient if the right hon. Gentleman asks the right hon. Gentleman whether there was anything in the placard which he considers contrary to the law.
§ MR. CHANCEthen, Sir, I would ask whether there was anything in the placard which the right hon. Gentleman considers contrary to the law; and, if so, whether he will read to the House that portion of the placard?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURSir, I consider that the placard, under the circumstances under which it was posted, was inflammatory.
§ MR. CHANCEWhat part of it does the right hon. Gentleman hold was contrary to the law?
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order ! The right hon. Gentleman has said that he considers the placard to be contrary to the law.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURPerhaps it would be convenient, if the hon. Gentleman thinks any illegality has been committed, that he would put a Question on the Paper on that subject to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland.
§ MR. CHANCEIn reply to that observation, I do not consider there was anything illegal in the placard; and I now ask whether, if I lay on the Table a copy of it, the Chief Secretary will take any step to enable this House to test the accuracy and the candour of the reply which I have just received?
§ [No reply.]
§ MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)I would like to ask the Attorney General for Ireland, in whose hand I see a copy of the placard, whether it is an illegal placard; and whether the most inflammatory portion of it is the request to persons to take out their cards of membership in the Windgap branch of the 44 National League; and, whether this is a class of placard which the Government are now authorizing the police to destroy?
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR [IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON) (Liverpool, Walton)I had not the advantage of reading the placard; but if the hon. Member would renew his question tomorrow I will be happy to answer it.
§ MR. CHANCEI observe that the Chief Secretary did not answer one portion of the Question; whether any person is to be prosecuted for publishing this inflammatory placard?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI have answered the question. Nobody is to be prosecuted.
§ MR. JOHN MORLEY (Newcastle-upon-Tyne)As the Attorney General for Ireland said that he did not advise the Chief Secretary, will the right hon. Gentleman state who did advise him as to the illegality of this placard, and what is the point of illegality specified by the adviser?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman mistook what I said. I did not give a legal decision at all upon the point.
§ MR. JOHN MORLEYDid not the right hon. Gentleman say the placard was illegal?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI particularly and carefully said that it was inflammatory; and I asked anybody who wished to know about the legal aspect of the case to address a question to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether instructions were given to the police to pull down anything which, not being illegal, they might think to be inflammatory; and what is the inflammatory character and the inflammatory point of this placard which was ordered to be pulled down?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman asks mo about the instructions that have been given to the police. I have no reason to believe that these have been altered since he was in Office.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTI hardly think that that is a pertinent—I was going to say it is an impertinent answer. The question is not as to the instructions to the police; but how those 45 instructions are carried out; and the question is whether, if the police pull down placards which are not illegal, what is the justification for so doing when it is brought to the notice of the Government, or what course they will adopt upon it? The right hon. Gentleman can answer a very simple question. What is the nature of this placard which, in his opinion, justifies the police in pulling it down?
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)Before the right hon. Gentleman answers, may I respectfully make him a suggestion. Is it not a fact that he has a copy of the placard; and, if not, I will be glad to place a copy at his disposal. As the right hon. Gentleman has stated that the placard contains inflammatory language, what reason has he for not reading to the House the language he considers inflammatory, and enabling the House therefrom to form something like an informal judgment on the action of the Government?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI need hardly say, Sir, that this is not an action for which I am directly responsible. The right hon. Gentleman has said that I did not answer his question. Now, one part of his Question undoubtedly was as to the nature of the instructions given to the police; and I was perfectly correct and perfectly relevant in informing him that those instructions had suffered no alteration since his own Administration. I do not wish to be dragged into a legal discussion, being a layman, in these matters; but I believe the law to be this—and I say it subject to correction by high legal authorities—that the police have power, and it is their duty, to pull down any placard which they think, on account of its being of an inflammatory character, may lead to a breach of the peace. Now, Sir, whether they were right or wrong obviously does not depend upon the mere character of the placard taken simply by itself; it depends on the character of the placard taken in connection with the circumstances of the district in which it was posted; and those who were responsible for the peace of the district were of opinion that it was not a placard which should be allowed to remain on the walls.
§ MR. CHANCEMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the circumstances of the district, as shown by the 46 Return of Agrarian Offences, consist in one threatening letter in three months?
§ [No reply.]
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTThe right hon. Gentleman, in his earlier answer, said that he regarded the placard as inflammatory, and one which ought to be torn down. Why should he decline to tell the House what is the passage or passages in the placard which he regards as inflammatory; and what are the peculiar circumstances of the district which rendered it inflammatory there?
§ MR. A.J. BALFOURI do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman really thinks that any advantage is to be gained by carrying on a debate upon this subject across the Table of this House in the form of Question and answer. [Cries of "Read the placard."] But I may state to the right hon. Gentleman that I certainly think I should not be doing my duty as Chief Secretary for Ireland if I required special and elaborate Reports of the special local circumstances of each district before I refused to censure a police officer for doing that which his superiors said he was right in doing.
§ MR. BRADLAUGHOn a question of Order, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland has asked mo to put upon the Paper for to-morrow a Question as to this placard. I want to know now. Sir, whether I should be justified in putting the contents of this placard upon the Paper; or how I am to raise before the House the question, or to challenge the legal judgment of the Attorney General for Ireland?
§ MR. SPEAKERIf the hon. Gentleman will put upon the Paper a Question to the Attorney General for Ireland, as was proposed to be done, asking what specific and particular passages in the placard he considers to be of an illegal character to justify the action taken, I think that would meet the circumstances of the case.
§ MR. BRADLAUGHI would ask the Chief Secretary, who has declared that the circumstances under which the posting took place might render the placard inflammatory, which would not otherwise be so, are there any other circumstances than an invitation to the inhabitants of Windgap to come forward and take out their cards of membership of 47 the Windgap Branch of the Irish National League; and, whether that could, under any circumstances, be one of the inflammatory matters which, under the present Act, is to he put down?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI would respectfully suggest to the hon. Member that that should form part of the legal Question which he is anxious to put to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland.
§ MR. BRADLAUGHI would not have put the Question to the Chief Secretary but that he has already pronounced judgment himself.
§ MR. T. D. SULLIVAN (Dublin, College Green)I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary whether the placard is couched in the following terms——
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order !