HC Deb 11 May 1885 vol 298 cc162-5
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

From expressions used by the Prime Minister, and from what we hear has happened in "another place," I would venture to ask whether it would be convenient, or whether he intended, to make any statement to the House with regard to the Afghan Frontier question before we proceed to the Orders of the Day?

MR. GLADSTONE

What I had to say was not of such importance as to lead me to have asked the House to allow me to make a separate statement; but I will say what I intended to say, as it may be for the convenience of the House, and I assume that I am allowed by their indulgence to proceed. My noble Friend has already told the House the exact condition of affairs as regards the troops in the Soudan and the instructions sent to them, and the intentions of the Government as far as these have been formed. He has told the House what has been decided and what has been reserved. With regard to the important question of the frontier of Afghanistan and the negotiations with Russia, the case stands in a somewhat different position as regards military matters, because there are no military operations in progress. Happily, matters have not reached that stage, and all that is going on, and has been going on, is in the nature of preparations. The House will not expect me to enter into detail at this time on the subject of those preparations; if it did I should have to refer to the Representatives of the Army and Navy Departments. But what I understand the Question of the right hon. Gentleman to refer to is this—what can be said with regard to the political position as respects the Afghan Frontier and the progress of the negotiations with Russia. The main thing that I have to say, I am afraid, must still be to point to the Papers which are coming, and give the House reasons to believe that by the end of this week the Papers will be in their hands. When the Papers are in their hands my expectation and opinion are, although I cannot yet speak absolutely with regard to every point, that the House will find itself in a condition fully to pass a judgment on the proceedings of Her Majesty's Government. I need not, however, confine myself absolutely to the reference to these Papers. I am able, with Lord Granville's authority, to say as much as this—the reference to the judgment of the Sovereign of a friendly State having been agreed to, as already stated in the House, and no apprehension being felt as to the settlement of the details of this point, several meetings have been held on the subject of fixing the principal points of the frontier. These meetings have been attended by Lord Granville and Lord Kimberley on the part of the British Government, and by M. de Staal and M. Lessar on the part of the Russian Government. The effect of these proceedings has been that they have arrived substantially at an agreement which is satisfactory to Her Majesty's British Government, and, let me add, which is satisfactory also to Lord Dufferin and the Council of India. There has been no time to receive the final ratification of these proceedings on the part of the Russian Government; but that is expected certainly from day to day. The time, the House will observe, has not been very long since the communications were commenced, and I may add with regard to the forms of proceeding that there is no difficulty. We anticipate the formation of a Convention with Russia at the close of the proceedings; but it may be an open question whether a convenient time for forming that Convention will not be when we have concluded, not only the main proceedings between the two Governments, but likewise the proceedings in detail for the delimitation of the frontier. I am not in a position to state at the present moment that the name of the arbitrator has been fixed. I do not speak of that as intending to convey that it is a subject of controversy, but simply because it comes in order after the proceedings with regard to the frontier, and with reference to the proceedings of the arbitration itself. We have not yet reached the point, but we have no reason to believe that there will be any long delay. I am not sure that there is anything else that it might be in the disposition of hon. Gentlemen opposite to ask, or that it may be in my power to reply to. What I have said, I believe, touches the main and essential points of the question. I will not go further—it would be abusing the Forms of the House were I to do so—and make any observations as to the Order of the Day and the intended Motion of the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) founded upon it. So far as I am aware, there is really no matter whatever in contest between ourselves and any other portion of the House at the present moment. Of course, I speak now of the production of information, and I do not speak of any question connected with the merits of the proceedings of Her Majesty's Government.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in any form, directly or indirectly, the Ameer has been, is being, or will be consulted with regard to these negotiations?

MR. GLADSTONE

I think I gave a sufficient answer to this Question a few days ago. I have considered carefully the terms of that answer, and I think it gave satisfaction to the House. I do not like to recite them, and I do not wish to vary from them; but, undoubtedly, I think I may say in general terms now that the Ameer has been sufficiently consulted to give us full assurance that we are acting in harmony with him and for his interest.