MR. JUSTIN HUNTLY M'CARTHYasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Whether, in view of certain recent trials and certain statements of the Judges in Dublin, he will withdraw the expression "trumping up charges," applied, by him to the honourable Member for Mallow?
§ MR. TREVELYANI did not use the expression "trumping up charges" in connection with the hon. Member for Mallow. It was in reference to the ex-detective, Meiklejohn. I did not mention the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien). I had not mentioned the hon. Member at the time that I used the expression in my speech. I used it in consequence of statements made about myself which were unfounded.
MR. JUSTIN HUNTLYM'CARTHYIs this quotation from the right hon. Member's speech accurate—
The House may imagine the terrible danger which Irish officials run when a man of this sort (Meiklejohn) is in Dublin, trumping up 1028 charges against them."—(3 Hansard, [289] 695.)Whether he was aware that Mr. Meiklejohn was in the employment of the hon. Member for Mallow; whether the charges referred to have not since proved disastrous to certain Dublin Castle officials; and, whether the right hon. Gentleman will apologise to Mr. Meiklejohn?
§ MR. TREVELYANIn some respects this is a subject I wish had not been brought before the House; but now that it has I must say one word. In bringing charges against an agent employed by a person, you do not bring charges against that person himself. It is the duty of a person to select good agents—the best he can get—but it is impossible to say that if one of these agents makes a false story that the person who employs him is guilty of that false story. The reason why I used this expression was because I knew very well what Meiklejohn's character was. I said of him in my speech.—
There has been in Dublin for some time past a man of the name of Meiklejohn, who was formerly in the English Detective Force, but who was dismissed from that Force, put upon his trial—a criminal trial—for levying black mail, and sentenced to two years' imprisonment, the circumstances of the offence being such that it was generally believed it was extremely fortunate for Meiklejohn that two years was the outside punishment that could be given. The House may imagine the terrible danger which Irish officials run when a man of this sort is in Dublin trumping up cases against them."—(3 Hansard, [289] 695.)Now, why did I say that? I said it because I knew Earl Spencer and myself were in danger, and I will describe how in one sentence. I knew that attempts were being made to blacken our characters. I knew that before I said those words; and how well-founded my apprehensions were was proved by the fact that an agent of a secret inquiry office went to a loose woman, who had got three letters signed "Frederick Trevelyan." This name I believe to be fictitious, because, as far as I know, there is no person of that name. He got these letters by very improper means, and sent them over to Dublin. That is all I know about the matter, except that this agent was carrying about in his pocket a photograph of me, which he showed to the woman, and asked her whether she recognized it. She said she did not. Then he said that it would be worth money to her if she did. I 1029 am sorry to trouble the House with a personal matter; but it will show that Earl Spencer and others ran very serious dangers.
MR. O'BRIENMr. Speaker, with respect to the partly grotesque and partly shameful statement made by the right hon. Gentleman—[Cries of "Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The hon. Member must withdraw the expression "shameful."
§ [Mr. O'BRIEN made no reply.]
§ MR. SPEAKERI call upon the hon. Member to withdraw the expression.
MR. O'BRIENIf you call upon me, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw the expression I will do so. I was about to say with reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that, so far as I know, it is utterly and totally without foundation—as thoroughly without foundation as many other charges made in the same quarter against me. I do not know whether the House, which has been so liberal in its cheers to the right hon. Gentleman, will be magnanimous enough to howl me down when I make this statement. But I will only say that I am quite content to let the results decide between the right hon. Gentleman and myself. I believe, to a great extent, the results have already decided against the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MR. TREVELYANThe hon. Member has made a very severe attack upon me when I made none upon him. I carefully selected my words so as not only to exclude him, because I believe him to be incapable of any such action, but I even picked my words so as not to include Meiklejohn. I should not have made a statement of this sort in the House unless I had felt myself able to confirm it. Fortunately, I am perfectly able to give the most absolute proof of this matter; although I felt it difficult to induce the prime agent to speak in the presence of anyone. I contrived, by such boldness as I could muster, to make him speak it out in the presence of a witness of the very greatest credibility, who took notes.
MR. O'BRIENI only desire to add one word to what I have said, and that is that if only the right hon. Gentleman will co-operate with us in getting a full inquiry into this matter, which we have again and again demanded, we shall be very happy to see the full facts of the matter disclosed.