HC Deb 06 July 1882 vol 271 cc1622-4
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

I wish, Sir, to ask you a Question, the terms of which I have not placed upon the Paper. It is, Whether, when the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, acting as Chairman of Committee of the Whole House on a Public Bill, is unavoidably absent during a whole sitting of such Committee, the Member taking his place should not be elected by the vote of the House; whether the rule laid down in Sir Erskine May's work, that— During prolonged sittings the Chairman sometimes withdraws and is replaced by another Member without any question, applies to a sitting during the whole of which the Chairman is absent, and, if so, for how many sittings such non-elected Member can keep the Chair; and, whether such non-elected Chairman, being generally a Member of the Government, can exercise the same disciplinary powers over Members of the House as the Chairman duly invested, by election of the House, with the full authority of the Chair?

MR. SPEAKER

In reply to the hon. Member, I may state that until comparatively recent times the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means did not usually take the Chair in other Committees, but any other Member could act as Chairman. But, when the sittings of Committees upon Bills became more protracted, it was arranged that the Chairman of Ways and Means should ordinarily take the Chair in Committees on Government Bills, and sometimes on other Bills. But at no time was the attendance of the Chairman of Ways and Means necessary for the due constitution of Committees. In his absence it has been customary for another Member to take the Chair, and this convenient practice has not hitherto been called in question or objected to. The Chairman for the time being exercises all the authority of the Chair.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

I beg to give Notice that on Tuesday next I will ask you, Sir, Whether, when the House has to enter into Committee on a Bill gravely affecting the liberties of the people or the disposal of public funds, it is competent, in the absence of the Chairman of Committee of Ways and Means—either when you are in the Chair or when the House is in Committee—for a Member to propose that the Chair should be taken by a Member other than an officer of the Government interested in the progress of such Bill?

MR. SPEAKER

I do not know that I have anything to add to what I have already said. The hon. Member has given Notice of a Question for Tuesday next. I am bound to observe that it is not usual for hon. Members of this House to give Notice publicly of Questions to the Chair, or to put those Questions on the Paper. If I understand the hon. Member correctly, his Question is whether it is competent to question the nomination of the Chairman who for the time being is presiding over a Committee. I have to say that it has been the invariable custom of this House for many years to allow any Member of the House to take the Chair in Committee on a Bill. If the House desires any alteration in that Rule, some instruction should be given for that purpose. I consider that the invariable practice having been to allow that custom as promoting the convenience of the House, it should not be departed from without instructions from the House to that effect.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

gave Notice that he would on an early day move for an inquiry by a Select Committee of the House as to the manner in which Chairmen of Committees were appointed, so as to obviate the difficulty of Members of the Government being appointed by the Government in a Committee involving the fate of the Government.

MR. GORST

said, he desired to know who it was that had the right to select the Member who was to take the Chair in the absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means; whether the Speaker indicated the Member, or whether it was the Leader of the House for the time being who did so, or whether any Member who liked might rush into the Chair?

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

asked the Prime Minister, whether he gave any directions on Saturday as to who should take the place of Dr. Playfair in the Chair on the Prevention of Crime Bill?

MR. GLADSTONE

No, Sir; the fact is that the arrangements of the House, more or less formal, have depended, to some extent, on the good sense of the House, without raising any difficulty whatever; and among them has been this matter in regard to the taking of the Chair by Chairmen. For 10 years, I think, after I entered the House the arrangements for taking the Chair by some Member of the House were invariably made by the promoters of the Bill, in concert with Gentlemen present in the House, as might be convenient. I think it was Sir Robert Peel who first of all induced Mr. Green to take the Chair on certain Committees, if not on all.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he could state with what Members of the House the Government, as promoters of the Bill, took concert when Mr. Courtney took the Chair at the beginning of the Sitting on Saturday?

MR. GLADSTONE

It was indicated to me that my hon. Friend was to take the Chair, and I must confess I was perfectly satisfied with the arrangement.

MR. HEALY

gave Notice that on the next occasion when the Chairman of Ways and Means was absent from the Committee, he would move that the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) should take the Chair.