HC Deb 10 August 1882 vol 273 cc1481-4
SIR HENRY HOLLAND

moved that Progress be reported, as it was most unusual to go on with further Votes at that time of night.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir Henry Holland.)

MR. COURTNEY

admitted that it was unusual; but urged that the Committee should go on a little further, promising that if there was any Vote which really gave rise to discussion he would report Progress.

MR. WARTON

said, it was very probable that there was no item in these Votes which would involve serious discussion; but it was also probable that hon. Members who were not present might reasonably suppose that such rapid progress would not have been made.

MR. H. H. FOWLER

pointed out that this was a time of the Session when it was to the interest of all parties to bring it to a close; and as there were no disputable matters in these Votes, and as any question could be raised on the Report, or on the Appropriation Bill, he thought the Committee ought to help forward the Business this evening.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

said, that when the late Government expressed a like desire to get on with the Votes they were most steadily opposed.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

asked whether the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtney) expected to get his Supply to-night? If not, he could go on with Supply early to-morrow.

MR. COURTNEY

said, he would be willing to report Progress when this Class was disposed of.

MR. T. C. BARING

observed, that if there was nothing objectionable in this Class it could be got through in five minutes at the next Sitting just as well as to-night. When he remembered the opposition by hon. Members now on the Treasury Benches, when the late Government wished to take Supply an hour earlier than this, he felt a strong objection to taking a new Class at 2 o'clock in the morning.

Question put, and negatived.

(30.) £208,582, to complete the sum for Superannuations and Retired Allowances.

(31.) £11,800, to complete the sum for Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c.

(32.) £18,900, to complete the sum for Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, or the Secretary to the Board of Trade, for an answer to a question he had already put. He would point out that one of the disadvantages in taking these Votes so late as this was that there were no Representatives of the Government present. Certain relief was afforded by masters of vessels to seamen abroad; but the Board of Trade, having some doubt as to their statutory power to grant relief, and looking at the difficulty of getting these expenses repaid, had given up these grants altogether. The Public Accounts Committee, however, thought the Board of Trade was not justified in doing that, and the Treasury concurred in that view. He should like to know whether the Board of Trade proposed to yield to the recommendations of the Treasury and the Public Accounts Committee, or to adhere to their determination not to give grants, and try to regain the money paid?

MR. COURTNEY

said, the Department hoped to regain the money paid, but they had no great expectation of that. They intended to exercise a more rigid supervision over the amounts granted.

Vote agreed to.

(33.) £432,500, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, England.

MR. MAGNIAC

inquired what decision had been come to with respect to pauper lunatics who had become lunatics while in prison? He presumed this matter had been settled, but he should like to hear what the decision was, because every day increased the evil, and increased the burden on the ratepayers. The transfer from one prison to another had very much increased this burden, and he hoped to have some satisfactory answer.

MR. COURTNEY

said, the case to which the hon. Member referred was that of pauper criminal lunatics, who had become lunatics in prison, being transferred to county asylums.

MR. MAGNIAC

said, they might be pauper lunatics up to a certain point.

MR. COURTNEY

explained that pauper lunatic criminals whose sentences had expired ceased to be criminals, and were then simply pauper lunatics like any ordinary pauper lunatic. The question of the general expenses had been considered by a Departmental Committee, which had spent a considerable amount of time during two years on the matter. Their Report was made last month; but the Home Secretary had not yet had time to consider their recommendations.

MR. MAGNIAC

said, he hoped the matter would not be long delayed, because it was causing great dissatisfaction in the country.

Vote agreed to.

(34.) £40,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Scotland.

(35.) £5,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Ireland.

(36.) £8,925, to complete the sum for Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland.

(37.) 49,326, to complete the sum for Friendly Societies Deficiency.

MR. MAGNIAC

regretted that there were so few Members present, and wished to know what was the capital amount which this sum represented? Speaking in round figures, one Parliamentary Paper put the amount at £1,200,000, while another put it at £2,100,000. It would be satisfactory to know exactly what the capital amount was.

MR. COURTNEY

said, the capital amount on the 20th of November last was rather over £1,258,000.

Vote agreed to.

(38.) £1,529, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain.

(39.) £2,808, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again To-morrow.