HC Deb 26 May 1881 vol 261 cc1425-8

(Mr. Litton, Mr. James Richardson.)

COMMITTEE. [Progress 16th May.]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

New Clause,— (Superannuation.) The superannuation or retiring allowance of each petty sessions clerk retiring from office through ago or infirmity shall be estimated upon his salary and emoluments of his office at the time of his so retiring, and shall be chargeable on the petty sessions clerk's fund,"—(Mr. Litton,) —brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

would object to the second reading of the clause unless the hon. and learned Member in charge of the Bill could inform the Committee what were the emoluments received by the clerks of petty sessions in addition to the salaries paid. He believed that in some instances these emoluments were very considerable, and the effect of this clause might be to throw an unfair burden upon the ratepayers.

MR. LITTON

said, the case stood thus—under 21 & 22 Vict. provision was made by which the petty sessions clerks received pensions regulated by the amount of the salaries they received, but which salaries fluctuated with the amount of fees received from year to year. The present Bill required that these pensions should be based upon the amount of emoluments received, as well as salaries, which by the Bill were proposed to be fixed for the future. The emoluments had reference to a certain portion of the dog licence tax, which the petty sessions clerks received as remuneration. It was only reasonable that when they came to receive their pensions the pensions should be calculated upon the emoluments as well as the salaries.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

asked what the emoluments were? He questioned very much whether any hon. Member could inform him.

MR. MELDON

said, that he knew something about the matter. The clause originally stood in his name, and the hon. and learned Member who had charge of the Bill agreed to adopt it. The petty sessions clerks were paid in two ways—by salaries, and by emoluments from fees on prosecutions, fees on licences, &c. The Bill provided, as it was introduced, that the clerks should be entitled to superannuation allowances on their salaries only, ignoring the fact that they were also paid by fees. Thet present clause merely provided that the fees as well as the salaries should be taken into account, as they were, at this moment, in the remuneration received.

MR. CALLAN

said, the Bill took away all inducement from the petty sessions clerks to advise the magistrates in favour of convictions. Looking at the measure from a popular point of view, or from what was called the people's standpoint, it was a very desirable Bill. Strange to say, it received the sanction of every class in Ireland, so far as he could ascertain. In a recent visit to Ireland he had discussed the matter with every class of the people, and he had found there was a universal feeling in favour of the Bill. He therefore hoped that the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. A. O'Connor) would withdraw his opposition, unless he had received strong representations from Ireland against the measure. In the event of his hon. Friend not having received such representations, he hoped he would allow himself to be guided by the opinion of those who had really considered the question.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

, said, he had not the least objection to the Bill, and had promoted it as much as he could on the second reading. He knew that it was a good Bill, and all that he objected to was this particular clause. He objected to it because he believed that the emoluments of the petty sessions clerks were not exactly known, anal, therefore, that it would be unfair to saddle the ratepayers with a permanent charge on the strength of emoluments of which they knew nothing. Among the emoluments were the licences on the dog tax. The hon. and learned Member in charge of the Bill said nothing about that.

MR. LITTON

said, the hon. Members was mistaken. He had referred to the dog tax.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

, was certainly of opinion that the majority of the Irish Members were not aware what these emoluments were. His contention was that they were not of a kind that superannuation ought to be calculated upon.

MR. HEALY

was in favour of the Bill; but he should certainly like to know from the hon. Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) what was done with the dog tax?

MR. MELDON

replied that the dog tax was one of the sources from which the petty sessions clerks were paid. Up to the present time it had been to the interest of the petty sessions clerks to bring about as many convictions as possible, and it was for the interest of the public that the present mode of proceeding should be altered. In bringing in the Bill his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Litton) had apparently forgotten that the superannuation allowances should be calculated on certain fees received from fines which did not fall upon the ratepayers at all. It was to remedy that omission that the present clause had been proposed.

Motion agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, at Two of the clock.