§ (i.) Registration of Works.
§ Clause 10 (Registration of works, and stamp duty).
§ MR. DODSONsaid, he now rose to move an Amendment which had been put down by the hon. Member behind him (Sir Sydney Waterlow).
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORrose to Order. He wished to ask the Chairman whether it was competent for the right hon. Gentleman to move the Amendment of another Member without giving. Notice? The Speaker had ruled that it could not be done.
§ SIR SYDNEY WATERLOWsaid, the Amendments were put down very late last night, and they appeared in his name by a mistake.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) refers to a Rule of the House which is not a Rule of the Committee. There is no previous Notice necessary.
Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 34, leave out "scheduled."—(Mr. Dodson.)
Amendment agreed to. 1417 Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 34, after "work," insert "to which Part II. of this Act applies."—(Mr. Dodson.)
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments proposed,
In page 5, line 1,1eave out "scheduled," and page 5, line 1, line 8, and line 17, after "work," insert "required to be registered."—(Mr. Dodson.)Amendments agreed to.Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 17, after "work," insert "not being an alkali work."—(Mr. Stevenson.)
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11 (Certificate of inspector prior to registration of new works).
§ MR. STEVENSONmoved, in page 5, line 34, to leave out "an," and insert "the chief." His object was to lay the responsibility upon the Chief Inspector.
Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. STEVENSONformally moved, in page 5, line 34, after "inspector," to insert "after his own examination or that of an inspector."
§ MR. R. POWERthought it but proper that the hon. Gentleman should state why he proposed to make this alteration.
§ MR. STEVENSONsaid, he had understood no objection was raised to the Amendment. In explanation, he might say that this was a case in which a certificate was required before a new work was allowed to be registered. The certificate was, by the Amendment just adopted, to be granted by the Chief Inspector; and he (Mr. Stevenson) now proposed that either the Chief Inspector, or a Sub-Inspector, should make the preliminary examination of the works.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
(ii.) Inspection.
Clause 12 (Appointment of Inspectors).
§ MR. DODSONmoved to add, after line 20, page 6—
The salaries and remuneration of the inspectors, and all such expenses of the execution of this Act as the Commissioners of Her Ma 1418 jesty's Treasury may sanction, shall be paid out of money provided by Parliament.Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. WILBRAHAM EGERTONmoved to add at end of the Clause—
A person holding the office of Chief Inspector, other than the person at the commencement of this Act mentioned, shall not be employed in any other work except by the authority appointing him to such office.Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, the Amendment was worded quite differently to that of which Notice had been given. He took it for granted that, as it was now put, it referred to the office of Chief Inspector; and he supposed they would have an assurance that the salary of the Chief Inspector would be something very different to that which he now received.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, the object of the Amendment which had been proposed by his hon. Friend, and which he (Mr. Dodson) had accepted, was to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission that all the Inspectors employed by Government should give their undivided services to the public. The only exception was in the case of the very eminent person who now held the office of Chief Inspector, and he had always been in an exceptional position.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had not answered him. He said he took it for granted that the Amendment applied only to the case of the Chief Inspector. The right hon. Gentleman had now said all the Assistant Inspectors were to devote their whole time to the public service. They now received something like £200 or, £300; but he had no hesitation in saying the expense would be three or four times as large as now if they were to give all their time.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, the right hon. Gentleman was labouring under a mistake. All the Inspectors except the Chief Inspector now gave their whole time.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13 (Disqualification of certain persons for inspectors).
§ MR. ERRINGTONmoved, in page 6, line 39, after "applies," to insert "or in any other chemical work for gain." The Amendment was simply intended to extend the definition of disqualification of certain persons holding inspectorships.
Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. DODSONproposed to go to the end of the 24th clause. Hon. Members would excuse him for reminding them that that was what he proposed at the onset to do, and in doing so he stated there was no seriously contested Amendment up to that point. Under the circumstances, he trusted the Committee would allow them to proceed.
§ MR. CHAPLINwould be sorry to interrupt the progress of the Bill; but it was possible they might have to wait half an hour or an hour, or even an hour and a-half, before they got to the end of the 24th clause. He must remind the right hon. Gentleman that, although some of them might not be taking an active part in the consideration of the Bill now before the Committee, there were several Bills on the Paper which they felt obliged to remain for and watch. As they all hoped to be in their places again at 2 o'clock this afternoon, the right hon. Gentleman ought to consent to report Progress at this point.
§ MR. STEVENSONbelieved 10 minutes would enable them to complete the work contemplated at the rate of progress they were making.
§ MR. PELLsaid, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dodson) did inform them at the commencement that there was no cause for serious disagreement; but since then an Amendment had been moved which his right hon. Friend (Mr. Sclater-Booth) declared would impose an enormous cost on the country.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHhoped his hon. Friends would allow the Amendments to go on, because really they were most unimportant. The Bill was greatly needed, and, as everyone knew, was originally prepared under his direction.
§ MR. R. POWERsaid, he would support his hon. Friends, unless the Government would say they would consent to 1420 report Progress in 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, they would make much better progress with the Bill if they proceeded with the clauses up to the point he had mentioned, than if they stopped to discuss at what precise moment they should report Progress. If it should be found the hour was getting late before they reached the 24th clause, they might then consider whether they would report Progress.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 14 (Powers of inspectors) agreed to.
Clause 15 (Facilities for inspection).
§ MAJOR NOLAN (for Mr. DILLWYN)moved, in page 7, line 22, to leave out all after "shall," to "render," in line 30. It was very proper that the owner of the works should be obliged to give a plan to the Chief Inspector of the furnace in which he carried on his secret process, and the Amendment was to secure that this should be done.
Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 22, to leave out from the word "shall," to the word "render," in line 30.—(Major Nolan.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. DODSONhoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not press the Amendment. If he would look into the matter, he would find that the Bill was a Consolidation Bill of the Acts relating to alkali works, and this provision was in those Acts, and the marginal note showed them where it was to be found.
MR. GORSTsaid, it was quite clear they ought to report Progress. They had come to a very seriously contested point, and, therefore, he moved to report Progress.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Gorst.)
The Committee divided:—Ayes 20; Noes 108: Majority 88.—(Div. List, No. 214.)
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he could not believe that the Government really intended to go on with the Bill; and, in order to give them an opportunity of explaining their position to the House, 1421 he would move that the Chairman leave the Chair.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Arthur Balfour.)
The Committee divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 104: Majority 83.—(Div. List, No. 215.)
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLthought the Government would now be willing not to insist on making further Progress with the Bill, and he should, therefore, move that Progress be reported. He wished the Committee clearly to understand that the reason why he and his hon. Friends objected to further Progress being then made was, not that they objected to the principle of the Bill or the purpose of the Bill, but to the extremely unusual, irregular, and he thought he might say slovenly manner in which the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had carried it on. The Bill affected important and large pecuniary interests; but it had been perfectly clear that the right hon. Gentleman had not made up his mind as to the particular Amendments which he would or would not accept. He had never seen a Committee of that House the proceedings of which more nearly approached to farce. Hon. Members produced Amendments from their pockets; the Chairman of the Committee could not understand them; he was assisted by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, who was again assisted by the President of the Local Government Board, who was himself contradicted by the former President of the Local Government Board. Hon. Members on that side of the House had been anxious to take part in the proceedings; but they could not understand what was going on. The right hon. Gentleman had said he would only go as far as the 24th clause, because there were no seriously contested Amendments before that clause; but the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) had produced an Amendment raising a most important question, and therefore the ground on which the right hon. Gentleman thought the Committee should go was altered, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would see that discretion was the better part of valour, and would not insist upon proceeding. The Bill was not blocked, so that Pro- 1422 gress could be very well made at some other time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Lord Randolph Churchill.)
§ MR. OTWAYthought the best answer to the noble Lord would be found in the division that had just taken place. Members of great experience on that side of the House had supported the Government; but the noble Lord said he had never known a Bill managed in a more slovenly manner. He (Mr. Otway) had sat in the House for a great many years, and he had rarely known a Bill to be so well managed. This was a Bill of very great interest to the country generally; and it was a Bill of a highly technical character not easily to be contemplated by hon. Members who were not interested in the subject. The right hon. Gentleman had followed the extremely sensible course of coming to an agreement with hon. Members who had Amendments on the Paper, and the result was that up to the 23rd clause there had been no Amendment of any importance upon which he had not been able to arrive at an understanding. The noble Lord, and some hon. Members who supported him, had chosen to prevent the prosecution of the Bill to a successful issue; but he would put it to him and those who supported him—for he felt certain they had no wish to interfere with Business that was not of a Party character, but was of substantial benefit to the country—to allow the Committee to proceed. Two divisions had shown a great majority; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman opposite, representing the action of the late Government, might claim the adhesion of the noble Lord. He hoped the noble Lord would withdraw his Motion and allow the Committee to proceed in a reasonable manner.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he was in accord with the feeling that the Bill should proceed, and he regretted that his hon. Friends had not shown a little more self-restraint, seeing that by that time they could have made fair progress. At the same time, he was not prepared to sit up all night; and he would put it to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dodson) whether he had not already advanced to within a few minutes 1423 of the time which he had expected to reach.
§ MR. CHAPLINdid not wish to enter into a discussion as to whether the Bill had been well or ill managed, nor did he presume for a moment to criticize the mode in which the measure had been conducted by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dodson). The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Otway) had said, very truly, that there was no desire to impede the Bill; but there was a great desire on the part of the Members on that side of the House, of whom he did not hesitate to say he was one, to go to bed, because they would be obliged to be there again at 2 o'clock that day. There were other Notices and Orders still on the Paper which possessed great interest for some hon. Members, and which they were obliged to watch; but until the discussion of that Bill came to an end it was impossible for them to go home to bed. He hoped the Government, at that time in the morning, would not persist. It was all very well to say that the discussion would be over in a few minutes; but Amendments had been introduced raising important questions, and the discussion might last one and a-half hours or longer.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, he did not wish to continue this matter unnecessarily, and he would make a proposal to hon. Members opposite, which he hoped they would be willing to accept—namely, that they should dispose of the clause they were then on and then agree to report Progress. He would not enter into a controversy with the noble Lord as to the manner in which he had conducted the Bill. He would not dispute with the noble Lord as to his competency or in competency; but he wished to say that he had endeavoured in conducting the Bill, whether ill or well, to conduct it with courtesy to hon. Members, and he did not wish to make an exception in that respect, even with regard to the noble Lord.
§ MR. HEALYremarked, that if half-an-hour ago the right hon. Gentleman had accepted his suggestion to continue until 2 o'clock he would have got the Bill through whole and entire by this time.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that, after all, this was only a question of one or two clauses, and he objected to working at that hour, because he believed that legislation after midnight was 1424 fraught with serious inconvenience to the country. Acts were habitually passed with very little consideration and examination in the small hours of the morning; and it was invariably found, after a Session or two, that they were incomplete, and must be amended. That was his objection to proceeding further with this Bill.
§ MR. R. N. FOWLERwished to know how it was possible that any measure of a non-contentious character could be passed if such objections were raised. This was a Bill in which there was no disputed principle, and he thought the Committee should proceed with it.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MAJOR NOLANcomplained that the Bill proposed to extend the principle of requiring people to give up plans to other than works involving muriatic gas. There were certain processes in regard to sulphur which were very expensive, and he wished to point out that the Bill would increase the force of that provision at least 10 times. It was one thing to give up ordinary plans, but quite another to give up secret and technical plans. He thought the Amendment of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), who spoke with great authority, was a very proper one; and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dodson) would give a pledge that the provision should only apply to works in which muriatic gas was produced.
§ MR. STEVENSONsaid, this was a Consolidation Bill; it included principles which had been the law of the land since the passing of the Alkali Act of 1862, and by the Act of 1874 it was applied to other gases than muriatic gas. He believed there was no real objection to this clause on the part of the manufacturers.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORremarked, that if the words were omitted which were proposed to be left out, all reasonable objects would be attained by the clause. The owners would still be required to render all reasonable facilities for inspection. In the third line of the clause it was provided that plans should be given, but that they should be kept secret. In the second part of the clause, however, it appeared that the plans were to be communicated to the Inspectors, the Assistant Inspectors, 1425 and all the agents of the inspectors. What amount of secrecy could there be in such an arrangement? It was upon this ground that he supported the Amendment.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, that if he got no answer from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board he should certainly move to report Progress. He thought he was entitled to some kind of answer when he brought forward a reasonable proposition.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, he had not answered the hon. and gallant Member, first of all because he thought he had answered the objection already; and, secondly, because an answer had been given by his hon. Friend behind (Mr. Stevenson), who spoke from practical experience of the working of the existing Acts. It was not from any want of courtesy towards the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he had not risen to reply. He was sorry that he could not accept the Amendment, which would involve a breaking down of what had hitherto been the legislation of the country. He hoped the Committee would agree to the clause, and he should then be prepared to report Progress.
§ MAJOR NOLANremarked, that the references in the Bill to previous Acts were badly drawn. He would not press the Amendment; but he hoped the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), in whose name it appeared on the Paper, would have an opportunity of bringing it up again upon the Report.
§ MR. WARTONcomplained that the President of the Local Government Board had dictated to the Chairman seated in his place with his hat on when he should put the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.