§ (7.)£372,366, to complete the sum for Public Education, Ireland.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, he had a few remarks to make with respect to the Treasury Regulations as to the teaching of the Irish language in the Irish National Schools. He had had a Motion on the Paper to call attention to the matter, but had been unable to find an opportunity of bringing it on. About two years ago, the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, in consequence of a Memorial which had been addressed to them, agreed to admit the Irish language into the programme of the National Schools; but they agreed to do so on the same terms as those on which the Government taught Latin and French—namely, upon the payment of a fee of 2s. per head extra. Now, it must be apparent to anyone that such a fee as that must prove an absolute prohibition. He was referring to the last Report of the Commissioners, which showed that out of 1,000,000 children on the rolls of the Irish National Schools, only 304 were examined in Irish, or hardly 1 in every 300. The National Commissioners had resolved themselves against the teaching of Irish; and, therefore, he thought that if the Government wished to prevent the teaching of the language from falling into utter abeyance, they should do away with the imposition of the extra fee. It might, perhaps, be contended that the smallness of the number of children learning was due to their indifference on the subject; but he could refer to numerous instances in proof of the contrary. He might refer to the case of Mayo, where there were 48 children in the Irish class; also to a school in Cork taught entirely by the nuns, where a most brilliant examination in Irish was held—27 passing out of 29 scholars. But with regard to the latter case, though 442 the children had passed, and were certified as being entitled to results fees, the Commissioners discovered that the school fees had not been paid; and they, therefore, disallowed the results fees. He thought that from that it would be apparent to the Committee that some sort of effort was being made to teach the Irish language in schools. He stood upon. the principle that the Government should agree that in any case where parents wished their children to learn Irish they should be allowed to do so without putting upon the teaching of the Irish language a fee which was double the amount of that paid by any other branch of learning. There were still 800,000 people in Ireland who spoke the Irish language, and of those 200,000 were of school age. Now, he submitted, as an educational principle, that instead of those children being taught the English language imperfectly—for they never did learn it perfectly—that they should be taught the Irish Grammar first, and afterwards they should proceed to the English Grammar. They would in that way acquire a grasp of English which they could not obtain under any other circumstances.
§ MR. ERRINGTONsaid, that the Amendment that stood in his name on the Paper grew out of a most important question—namely, the condition of the National School Teachers. He had hoped to have been able to move it had not circumstances prevented him from doing so. He owned he was placed in a somewhat difficult position. There was a season for all things; and he doubted very much, considering the circumstances in which the Committee was placed, whether one would be advancing very much the interests of that most important matter by bringing on a Motion at that time. He had to consider it all the more, because he had not brought it forward entirely on his own responsibility; and now, after consulting with the eminent persons in Ireland who were most interested in the question, he was obliged to come to the conclusion, at their special request, that he would be doing best for the interest of education in Ireland, which depended so much upon that particular question, in not wearying the Committee in asking them to enter upon that most extensive and elaborate question. Under those circumstances, he did not purpose to move his Amendment. He merely hoped that 443 his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary would give the subject his attention during the Recess. He was sure his right hon. Friend would be the last person to undervalue the importance of it. He would, however, take the opportunity of giving Notice that he would, on the earliest possible occasion next Session, call attention to the matter and move his Resolution. He should, however, like to ask the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to one point, which was the training of Workhouse National Teachers. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) had exerted himself very much in improving the condition of the National School Teachers. But the position of the Workhouse Teachers was very inferior to that of the general body. He knew that the question was a very complicated one; but he would ask his right hon. Friend to consider it, and especially with regard to one point—namely, the introduction of a moderate but fair system of payment by results. By their regulations, the Workhouse Teachers were excluded from the benefit of those fees, and they were anxious that it should be extended to them. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman might see his way towards giving them their share in those fees, which would do a great deal towards the advancement of education in Ireland.
§ MR. MELDONsaid, the question alluded to by his hon. Friend the Member for Longford (Mr. Errington) was one deserving of the serious attention of the Chief Secretary. The question of these grievances of Workhouse Teachers had been brought before Parliament on a previous occasion, and the then Chief Secretary thought that he would be well inclined to come forward and assist the cause of education in Ireland. The way the Workhouse Teachers were paid was this. The workhouse officials fixed the salaries, which were to be paid out of the workhouse funds; but, unfortunately, instead of throwing the increased salaries upon the same fund, they were thrown upon the Poor Law Guardians, and, in consequence, they remained a dead letter. At present, the workhouse teachers had a very real grievance. The extra remuneration was intended to be paid by the Poor Law Guardians; but instead of making it compulsory, it was only made permissive, and, therefore, 444 they had been deprived of that remuneration. The amount paid by the Guardians had been practically nothing. Now, he could not let those Estimates pass without calling attention to the much larger question of the condition of the National School Teachers in Ireland. Notwithstanding the exertions that had been made by the Irish Members, and the promises that were given to them by the late Government, and by that House, he was sorry to say that their condition remained still bad enough. In 1875, the late Government admitted that the Irish National School Teachers had three grievances, and that those grievances ought to be redressed. The first was that of salaries, the next that of residences, and the third that of pensions. Now, he was not going to say anything with reference to the pension scheme. But he must say only one or two words on the question of salaries and residences. In 1875 the Government then in power admitted that the National School Teachers had a grievance, and brought forward a scheme for the removal of that grievance. A portion of that scheme was the payment of results fees, and the scheme which the Government proposed was, that there should be a Parliamentary grant to the extent of one-third of the results fees of the teachers; that that should be paid unconditionally, and that the House should provide a further sum to pay the second third of the fees to be paid to the Teachers, but only conditionally upon the Guardians providing the remaining third. Now, it appeared clearly from that that two-thirds of the amount was only to be paid conditionally, for nothing was said as to the Guardians being obliged to contribute the sum or not. The question was left simply to the Poor Law Guardians. If they came forward and voted the money, then the teachers were paid the whole of the results fees; but if they did not do so, then the teachers lost 2s. 3d of the amount intended for them. Now, it was supposed that the Poor Law Guardians would be found willing to come forward and vote that contribution in the cause of education; but what had the result been? In 1879–80, out of the entire Unions of Ireland, there were only 20 Unions who had thought it their duty to contribute under the powers of the scheme of 1875; and the necessary result of that was that, except in the case of 20 Unions, the 445 whole of the National School Teachers in Ireland would be deprived of 2s. 3d. of their results fees. How did the case stand in the present year? There were but 13 Unions which had become contributory during the present year, leaving 150 non-contributory. Therefore, the teachers had been deprived, with the exception of those 13 Unions, of at least one-third of the money it was intended they should have. The reason they were not deprived of the other third was that the Government, seeing that the majority of Unions were not willing to become contributory, introduced a scheme whereby in those Unions which refused to become contributory if the teachers provided a certain percentage towards the fees in comparison with the results fees, the Government would pay that one-third of the results fees which was made conditional upon the Unions becoming contributory. Therefore, the entire extent of mischief had not been done to the teachers in the non-contributory districts, because the Government paid 2s. 3d. of the results fees; but still the teachers were absolutely deprived of one-third of the fees except in 13 Unions. Now, that was a state of things that could not go on. Sufficient time to act upon the recommendation of Parliament had been afforded, and he trusted that that portion of the grievance would not be allowed to continue any longer. Unfortunately, owing to the poorness of the districts, there were 254 schools in 1879–80 that had actually been deprived of giving these subscriptions towards the 2s. 3d. of the results fees. That was a state of things at which, he thought, should no longer be allowed to remain. Last year, owing to the pension scheme being introduced, there was an addition of something like£40,000 for the purpose of enabling the teachers to draw their pensions. The other question he had referred to was the question of residence. Now, he was of opinion that it was not Parliamentary action that was required in the matter at all; but it was rather a question of administration which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take up. It was admitted that one of the greatest grievances the teachers had was that they had no residences; and certainly Parliament did its work extremely well in passing the National School Teachers Residences (Ireland) Act. What was the prin- 446 ciple of that Act? It was this — That if the managers of schools that were non-resident schools chose to contribute one-half to the building of a residence the State would contribute the other half. The payments were made by the Board of Works to be repayable at 5 per cent per annum. The teacher had to pay half of the instalment, which was 2½ per cent, and the National Board of Education contributed the other 2½ per cent. Now, that was an exceedingly fair thing to propose, as he thought that Parliament had done its work remarkably well; but what had been the result? That Act had substantially been a dead letter. Generally it had not been availed of, and the question of the teachers' residences was just as bad now as it was in 1874. How did the figures stand? It appeared that in the first year after the National School Teachers Residences (Ireland) Act was passed there was a sum of 5,000 granted, in order to meet the instalments that would be required for the building of those residences. He believed that of that£5,000 every penny was returned next year, and not one farthing was expended. The next year£2,500 was taken, and returned. Then it fell to£250 a-year, and that was a much greater sum than was required, owing to the bad administration of the business in Wardour Street. Now, in Ireland, out of 7,522 schools, there were but 1,267 with residences, towards which the State had contributed nothing. That was to say, that about one-sixth of the schools were provided with residences with which the State had nothing to do. There were, altogether, about 152 residences erected since 1875, which had not been in any way assisted by the National School Teachers Residences (Ireland) Act of 1875. The figures of 1875 were as follows:—There were 39 applications in the entire of Ireland, and 27 granted; and, since 1875, there had been altogether 152 applications under the Residences Act, of which 127 were granted. Those were now vested schools. Of the vested schools there had been 47 applications, and 37 grants. Now, that showed that the object Parliament had in passing that Act had been completely frustrated, and that some remedy was required. If schools wished to be put under the national system, and obtain the State money, they must 447 have a proper school house, proper furniture, and all requisites for the education of the children. But was not a residence for the teacher quite as essential for a good school house? His impression was that that question would never be settled unless there were some stringent regulations that residences must be provided for the teachers. Now, he thought he had shown, upon the whole of those points, that there was absolute necessity for immediate action; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman, who was distinguished for his efforts in the cause of education in England, would do for Ireland as much as he had brought about in England, and that next year that question would be finally settled. With reference to the pension system, he had to say that the age at which pensions were granted in Ireland was altogether too high. They went into the service at 18, and it was not until they had reached the age of 65 that they became absolutely entitled to the pension fund, to which they themselves had been subscribing. Again, the teachers could not possibly understand how£1,300,000 could be required as the nucleus of a pension fund. He hoped the question would receive consideration at the hands of the Government, and that the Chief Secretary would see during the Recess whether the matter could be effectually dealt with.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, taking first the remarks of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), that he could not pledge himself to any action as regarded the details of the result fees. In fact, after having made up his own mind, he would still have to see his noble Friend the Secretary to the Treasury on the matter. The hon. Member would, however, agree with him that the first point they had to consider was the teaching which was likely to be most useful to the children who received State aid. Undoubtedly, in almost all parts of Ireland, the main thing was to enable them to gain their own living, and that really meant learning reading, writing, and ciphering. Reading and writing in English he meant. Unless they had those three things, he thought they would be under a very great disadvantage in the struggle for life. He was perfectly well aware that there were still districts in Ireland where the Irish language might be said 448 to be predominant, and in all those cases he thought the State ought to see that there was a fair amount of teaching of the Irish language. But even in those cases it would be a cruelty to the children not to give them an opportunity of thoroughly learning English. He, however, admitted the probable correctness of what the hon. Member said—namely, that in many cases the children would gain English better by having learnt Irish at the same time. But then there came the other case of the English-speaking districts, in which the parents wished the children to learn Irish. Well, he understood that those gentlemen who were much interested in the Irish language had asked that Irish should be put under the same conditions as other branches of study—such as French, for example. He should be glad to look into that question; but he could not say more upon that matter. Now, the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Errington) had raised a most important question, to which, on that occasion, he did not think it was possible to do justice. In fact, it would require almost a whole evening to itself. He did not pretend yet to have been able to master the question of Irish education; but he had seen enough of it to feel that the training of teachers required the closest attention. The hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) referred to the present working of the result system, and his practical suggestions should have his best consideration. It was to the interest of the children and of the teachers that the result system should be fairly tried; but it was a serious matter to make further claims upon the Exchequer. Not merely as regarded money; but if they once admitted that the whole amount had to be paid out of the Imperial Fund, it was as good as to say to local bodies that they had nothing to do with the matter. The great difference between English and Irish education was that in England every locality was responsible for the education of the children in it, and he was strongly inclined to believe that at last they would have to come to that in Ireland. But it was a matter to be approached with considerable caution; they must not anticipate public opinion. Then, as to the question of residence, the same arguments applied. He had said they must try to tempt localities, and they must not give up the notion that this tempta- 449 tion would succeed. He would bear in mind the administrative suggestions of the hon. and learned Member for Kildare; but it would be a serious thing to make it an absolute condition to a school, for they knew how necessary a school must be, and they might sometimes have no school at all if this was made an absolute condition. Still, it was a matter which must be borne in mind. Then, on the other subject of pensions. That was a matter upon which, he thought, an inquiry should be made. There was a much better system of pensions in Ireland than in England; but then, on the other hand, he was aware that the original salaries were much less. In the number of schools there had been an increase to 504,000 from 445,000— the number two years ago—so far that was an improvement.
§ MR. GRAYcalled the right hon. Gentleman's attention to a recent recommendation of the Local Board, which had considerably diminished the number of assistant teachers, by increasing the number of pupils which entitled the teacher to have an assistant. Would the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity of expressing an opinion as to the wisdom of persevering with that course? It had created considerable controversy, and it was the general opinion that the efficiency of the schools would be impaired if the rule was preserved.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, his opinion of the number of children in such a case would be founded upon his English experience; but he really could not give any definite answer until he had more practical information.
§ MAJOR NOLANthought it would be a good deal felt in Ireland if the rates were made to contribute. To educate under the Guardians he did not think there would be any great objection; but he did not think they would like to be called upon to contribute. That was the opinion he had often heard expressed in the Union with which he was most acquainted, and he believed the same opinion existed in other Unions. He went into the figures last year to show that if they took the Census as the basis of population, Scotland had more per head than Ireland, and Ireland, again, a little mere than England. But while there had been an increase in the 450 last five or six years in the other two cases, there had been no corresponding increase in the Irish Estimates. And it must be considered, in comparing England with Ireland, that the population was small in the latter as compared with England; and, consequently, it was much easier to educate a given number of children on the same sum of money. Taking this into account, it might be said that Ireland received less per head than England and Scotland; so until Ireland had an equal sum in proportion to its population it would not be fair to put the money on the Votes. Unfortunately, too, there was not the class in Ireland there was in England to give their voluntary subscriptions. The feeling in Ireland was that it should be done by Parliament; that the surplus Revenue should go to support education. The Chief Secretary expressed a fear that to make a residence the condition to a school might stop education. But he might compel landlords to sell a small piece of land at a fair valuation for the erection of a residence. A short Act, introduced for the purpose of enforcing the sale of land when it was required for the addition to the school, would be valuable; and a certain number of residences would be built if that were done. There were some who would not dispose of ground for such purposes, and he knew an instance where a nobleman refused even to sell ground for the erection of a chapel. He thought the hon. Member had done right in not going into the question; but, so long as English public opinion insisted on training up teachers in the way they wished, and in which the Irish people did not wish, so long as they insisted on meddling in education to the extent of training teachers in a way to which the great mass of the people and of the teachers objected strongly, so long as that was done, they must take the responsibility upon themselves. Education was mixed up a great deal with the whole state of Ireland, and it was idle to say the responsibility did not rest with those who insisted on this control. However, he would not press this troublesome and delicate question this Session; but the Government ought to take it up next Session. The want was, to have a few schools throughout the country where the teachers might be trained as the mass of the people desired—thoroughly 451 voluntary schools. There was another matter to which the attention of the Government should be called. There was a policy to get rid of the agricultural schools. That would be most injurious. He was on the Committee with reference to the Potato Crop, and the evidence given before that Committee led him to think that an extension of these schools, rather than a diminution, was much wanted in Ireland. It was only a question of a few hundreds to the Exchequer, and it was to be hoped the Government would not allow them to be abolished. The French Government posted up in every Commune directions to the peasantry as to the sowing of their crops, in the true spirit of a paternal Government. But, perhaps, a much better plan would be to give instructions through agricultural schools. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman, when he visited Ireland, would look at the model school near Dublin, and would see that the system ought to be extended. This was not a "burning question;" but still it was one that the Chief Secretary ought to entertain.
§ MR. P. MARTINcould not allow the Vote to pass without some observations in respect to the model schools. They had been condemned by a Parliamentary Commission; and if the late Government had continued, he believed they proposed to remedy, at least in part, the grievances in respect to these schools of which the Catholics had so long complained. He would not ask the Chief Secretary to make, at present, any definite statement of the intentions of the present Government; but he had expected to receive from him a promise that he would look into the matter, and see that the recommendations of Lord Powis's Commission were substantially, at least, carried into effect. From the answers of the Chief Secretary recently given, it appeared that in two of these schools a Protestant head-master had been appointed because there were no Catholic pupils. Poor Catholics derived no benefit from these schools, which were kept up at enormous expense for the advantage of those who, from their position and standing, were not entitled to have their children educated at the expense of the State. The educational results attained by these schools were miserably inadequate. The Catholic schools, supported, to a great extent, by voluntary aid, had produced in 452 most instances a larger number of qualified teachers than those establishments whose expenses were defrayed out of this grant. He would not now enter at large on the matter. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give a pledge to look into the matter, and endeavour to give some fulfilment to the recommendations made, not merely by Lord Powis's Commission, but by more influential ecclesiastics, both Protestant and Catholic, who had the real educational interest of Ireland at heart.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERcould only say that he would look into it; and the hon. Gentleman had strong security that he would do so, for he knew the deep interest it excited, and that he would not have an easy life if he did not do so.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (8.)£1,059, to complete the sum for Teachers' Pension Office, Ireland.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary if he could inform him where the office was, if there was such an office?
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERwas afraid he could not answer the question now. He could not tell the hon. Gentleman; but he would be much to blame if he was unable to answer next year.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, the reason he asked was because he believed there was no such office. It consisted apparently of a superintendent, who, in addition to his salary from the Army Votes as a master in the War Office, received£200 a-year. Then there was a first clerk who received£500 a-year, a second clerk with£335, and some lower division clerks. But was there such an office in London or not? For, practically, the gentleman who superintended it was located at the War Office. He was an excellent and efficient public servant, as he could say from personal knowledge; but that, in addition to his salary of£700 to£800, to receive another£200 for superintending an office that did not exist, was a position he did not understand. If there was such an office in Dublin, the Superintendent should be there. He sought to elicit the facts; but, of course, without these he could offer no comment.
§ MAJOR NOLANobserved, that it was a quaint Vote altogether, for the second clerk received£35 above the maximum. He would ask the Chief Secretary, or whoever was responsible, to look into these items. If the increase was£15 a-year, it would seem he had got beyond his maximum in a very short space of time.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he found that the office was in the Castle, Dublin. He observed there was no increase this year except the natural increment to the second clerk. The object of the office was to take charge of the grants made under the Act lately passed. A fund of more than£1,000,000 could not be distributed without an office in connection with it.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (9.)£340, to complete the sum for Endowed Schools Commissioners, Ireland.
§ (10.)£1,439, to complete the sum for National Gallery, Ireland, &c.
§ (11.)£3,108, to complete the sum for the Queen's University.
§ MR. DILLONfelt it his duty to oppose this grant; and, in doing so, felt it necessary to refer to the course of the University Question in Ireland during past Sessions. Hon. Members had heard, he should say, quite enough of the Irish University Question, and Irish Members were thoroughly tired of bringing it forward in the House. As they were aware, it was a question that for 20 years had been debated in the House, and without any tangible result. In the last Parliament a measure was introduced by the O'Conor Don, which did not at all satisfy the demands of the people of Ireland. However, it was brought forward with the approval of some Members for Ireland; and though it was generally considered that it was a measure which would injure most seriously higher education in Ireland, and would practically result in placing the higher education of the Catholic population on a much lower level than that of the Protestants, still, so great was the despair that had been instilled into the minds of Irish Catholics by the treatment the question had received in the House for upwards of 20 years, that influential men in Ireland induced support to the modified demand. But 454 it would be remembered how this demand was met by the Government in power, how they shifted backwards and forwards, and finally ended by opposing and throwing out this measure. And it would be also within the recollection of hon. Gentlemen that, hastily, at the end of the Session, a measure was brought in which professed to be a settlement of the Irish University Question; and he must say that, in his recollection, it was the most inadequate, wretched solution ever produced. Everyone must acknowledge the question was one of the greatest magnitude, the unsettlement of which had injured generation after generation of young lrishmen. It had sent successive generations of young men out into life deprived of the benefit of higher education simply because Parliament refused to settle this question. The Government, although they acknowledged the gravity of the case, brought in their measure, which, professing a settlement, settled nothing at all—in reality, gave nothing. He regretted to say that the measure, was permitted to pass through the House without the determined opposition it ought to have received from the Irish Representatives. That also was the result of that feeling of despair which had settled on Irish Catholics. They felt the hopelessness of an approach to equality in University Education, and felt that their best course would be to accept whatever the Government were willing to give. The protests of himself and others, that it would do no good whatever, were smothered in the cry —"Take this as a little concession; you will get something by allowing this to pass, and that will be better than nothing." But he did not consider that it was better than nothing; and, further, he considered if the Catholics of Ireland acted with courage and resolution, they would, in the long run, view the right of equality with Protestants in the matter of University Education. To enter fully into this question was impossible now; but it was only right to tell the Government that this question of Irish University Education had not been settled, and that the time of the House must be continually occupied with it until the Act passed last year was repealed. He was well aware that a simple protest would never come to any good; and, therefore, he wanted to impress on the Government that the wisest course to pursue would be 455 to prepare some scheme, and lay it before Parliament early during the coming Session. And if they wanted information, as probably they would, as to the real demands of Irish Catholics, and the circumstances and merits of the case, let a Committee be appointed for the purpose; and he would suggest that that Committee should consist of Irish Members, selected from the three Parties into which they were divided, in due proportion. If it were not that the right hon. Gentleman now in the Chair was occupied in labours too arduous to permit of his assisting, his wish would be to secure his assistance; for he took this opportunity of saying that he should be quite willing to place the whole of the case in his hands. He (Mr. Dillon) had listened to speeches made by the Chairman in the House; and all he could say was, if the Liberal Government would take his advice and suggestions for settling the claims of Irish Catholics, they would save themselves a great deal of trouble, and the House a deal of waste time. He remembered the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, made on the occasion of the discussion of the O'Conor Don's Bill; and, on the part of those who shared his feelings on this University Question, he was prepared to say they accepted that speech as an expression of their views. He had thought it right not to allow this Vote to pass without warning the Government that next year, when they would have more time at their disposal, if a measure was not brought forward which would give to the Catholics of Ireland perfect equality with Protestants in the matter of University Education, Irish Members would oppose the grant of any money to the Queen's University, and avail themselves of every opportunity that occurred during the Session of pressing upon the attention of Parliament those claims which had too long been allowed to remain unrecognized. He would conclude by saying it was impossible to exaggerate the evil that had. been done to Ireland by the treatment of this question. Only within the last six months it had come to his knowledge how hundreds of young Irish Catholics had gone to Australia, to America, and elsewhere, in search of that which they had been prevented from receiving in Ireland.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, he had no intention of adding anything very great to the 456 speeches; but wished to say that he hoped the Estimates now before them would not be considered at the same time of the Session next year. A great number of English Members were of opinion that the Committee should not deal with the subject at this time of the Session. The discussion had been very inadequate, and he hoped next year the Estimates would be brought forward earlier. He agreed with the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon) that the present arrangements for the Universities in Ireland were bad. He, however, understood very little about the subject, and he did not believe it was really understood in Ireland at all.
§ MR. COURTNEYwished to call attention to what had been said by the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon), and to remind him of the Bill which was brought in last year by the O'Conor Don, which had on its back the names of the hon. Member for the City of Cork, of the hon. Member for the County of West-meath, of the hon. Member who preceded the present hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon), and of the hon. Member for Carlow. That Bill received the unanimous support of the Irish Parliamentary Party of that time, although it was said to be a measure of such a doubtful character. It was most difficult, therefore, to find what was really wished to be done. The hon. Member for Tipperary had been occupied in an attempt to condemn in the most sweeping way the very Bill which had been so brought in and approved.
MR. O'CONNOR POWERadmitted that it was quite open to the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney) to make the comments he had done on the speech of the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon); but his comments might lead to some misconception. The want of satisfactory legislation on the subject arose from the failure to understand the wishes of the Irish people. But now, if the question was not settled, it could not be because they had not obtained a knowledge of the wishes of those people whom they represented. The action of the O'Conor Don did not at all exonerate the House from blame in the matter; and he hoped the speech of the hon. Member for Liskeard would not prevent remarks being made by him upon the subject. No one ever thought of stopping the progress of additional measures 457 in England because no such reasons were brought forward in respect of them as had been the case with Irish matters. He could not hold out any hope of agreement between themselves and the hon. Member for Liskeard.
§ MR. DILLONthought the remarks of the hon. Member for Liskeard required some explanation. It was well known that the measure referred to was a bad one, and that it came from the Castle of Dublin with the understanding that if it was accepted it would be passed through the House. Hon. Members, therefore, put their names on the back of a Bill which was a bad one in their own view. That seemed a very absurd state of things and somewhat lamentable; but it was better than nothing, when they knew that if it was brought in they would be allowed to pass it. The draftsmen were instructed so to frame the Bill that it might be passed, and it was accordingly brought in.
§ MAJOR NOLANwished it to be understood that the Irish people required Protestant, Presbyterian, and Catholic Colleges, and that all their institutions required an equal proportion of endowments. They had been compelled to bring forward such compromises as that proposed by the O'Conor Don in the hope of passing them; but he wished to see perfect equality in the matter, with the amounts set out in separate Estimates.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (12.)£8,728, to complete the sum for the Queen's Colleges, Ireland.
§ (13.)£1,250, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy.