SCHEDULE. (Hansard, 25 July 1878)

THE O'CONOR DON
moved, in page 5, after line 13, to insert the following sub-section:—"(1.) The Irish language, literature, and archaeology." The object of the proposal was to provide for instruction being given in the schools on those subjects. In a Bill of this description it was eminently desirable to recognize the fact that there was an Irish language, and that a knowledge of it would be useful. There were, no doubt, a great many persons in Ireland who spoke that language; but there were not many who knew it grammatically, who were able to write and read it, and to decipher it in manuscript. His proposal was not a mere matter of sentiment, but one which would, if adopted, prove practically useful.

§ MR. J. LOWTHER
hoped that the hon. Member for Roscommon would not feel himself under a necessity to press his Motion to a division. Irish literature covered a wide ground; and, as regarded the Irish language, he thought it was substantially a dead language. It could hardly be seriously contended that a knowledge of that language was necessary in Ireland towards a good liberal education. As matters stood at present, he had not sufficient information to justify him in accepting the proposal of the hon. Member.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER
hoped that the hon. Member for Roscommon would not be contented with the statement of the Chief Secretary; but would, if necessary, go to a division on the subject. He might remind the Committee that a Memorial, signed by 40 or 50 Members of Parliament, had been presented in favour of the proposal now under consideration; and when a Bill of this kind was being passed—a Bill which was intended to meet the wishes of the Irish people—could the Committee disregard the opinions of the Representatives of that people, as expressed in that document? He sincerely trusted the Chief Secretary for Ireland would reconsider the matter.

§ MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY
said, there were in Ireland a literature and a lan- 328 guage of great value, which threw much light upon the character, the ancient history, and the tendencies of the people of that country. He believed that 50 years hence it would be part of the programme of every Irish educationalist to insist upon a knowledge of those subjects which the hon. Member desired to see included in the present Bill. He joined with his hon. Friend the Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power), in hoping that the Chief Secretary for Ireland would re-consider the matter.

§ MR. LYON PLAYFAIR
desired to point out that if the proposal of the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) were accepted, it would alter the whole structure of the Schedules, which at present included only six subjects.

§ MAJOR NOLAN
said, that if Greek and Latin were to be separated into two, there would also be an increase in the number of subjects.

MR. SULLIVAN
strongly appealed to the Government to re-consider the subject. He could assure them that this was a matter which deeply touched the feeling of Ireland—one which touched that feeling more, perhaps, than anything else. Was this a moment, when a patriotic citizen of Edinburgh had collected from his countrymen no less a sum than £10,000—he referred to Professor Blackie—for the endowment of a Celtic Chair in the University of that city, for the Government to say "Nay" to a request like the present, made to them by the Irish Representatives? He might remind the Committee that in a previous Session he had appealed, and not in vain, to the Prime Minister to recognize Irish language and literature by giving a grant of money in connection with the ancient manuscripts of that country; and he stated then, what he stated now, that, owing to the neglect of education in Ireland, if the ancient language of the country was not more extensively known, they would soon be incapable of translating those manuscripts, which were of priceless value, not only to Ireland itself, but to the whole of Europe.

§ MR. BUTT
said, he heartily joined with hon. Members who had spoken, in appealing to the Chief Secretary for Ireland to agree to the request which, he believed, was unanimously pressed upon him on the part of the Irish Representatives. There was at present— 329 and had been for many years—a Professor of the Irish language at Trinity College; and it was proposed that that Chair should be endowed in memory of an accomplished man who had taken a deep interest in the subject. Another well-known Irish citizen had left £5,000 a-year towards the cultivation of the Irish language. With these examples before them, he hoped the Government would see the importance of the proposal of the hon. Member for Roscommon, and would recognize the undoubted fact that great interest was taken in Ireland in this matter. He believed that nothing would give more general satisfaction throughout that country than a recognition, under this Bill, of the Irish language.

§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH
said, that as one who had occupied the post which his right hon. Friend (Mr. J. Lowther) now filled, he could assure the Committee, and especially the Irish Members, that the Government had not the slightest wish to place a ban upon the Irish language, or to depreciate the wishes of the Representatives of Ireland on the subject. Obviously, however, the matter was surrounded with a good many practical difficulties. While there was a considerable number of persons in Ireland at the present day who spoke the Celtic language, there were but few who were qualified scholars in it; and if the proposal of the hon. Member for Roscommon were adopted, he ventured to say that in but few schools would it be possible for those who attended them to secure efficient instruction in Irish language, literature, and archæology. It might be possible in time, and it might also be desirable, that a knowledge of those three subjects should be extended; but the extension could only come with time. Other branches of learning of great importance were not named in the Schedule of the present Bill; but it rested with the Board to introduce them, when they saw fit, among the list of subjects. He hoped that at that hour of the morning—2.30— the hon. Member for Roscommon would see the propriety of not pressing his proposition to a division.

§ MR. BUTT
was acquainted with at least one seminary in Ireland—a Roman Catholic institution—in which no difficulty was experienced in receiving instruction in the Irish language. For- 330 merly there were many men of eminence as scholars in the ancient tongue of his country; but the number of such men was declining every day, because no encouragement was held out to them. For that reason, if for no other, he thought the proposal of the hon. Member for Roscommon was one which ought to command the attention and approval of the Government.

THE O'CONOR DON
said, that if the Chief Secretary for Ireland would undertake that on the Report he would, in some shape, embody in the Bill the recognition of the Irish language, Irish literature, and Irish history, he would not press the subject further on the Committee; but unless the right hon. Gentleman would give them an assurance that a provision for the purpose should, in some shape, be inserted in the Bill upon the Report, it would be necessary to divide the Committee on the question.

§ MR. E. JENKINS
desired to point out to the Committee that this was a matter of University Education, apart from Intermediate Education. And what would be the effect of adopting the proposal? A man might pass in Irish language and literature, and then in some subject of secular education to be settled by the Board, and there would be nothing to insure that a proper and sufficient education was given to such competitors, which it was the great aim of the Bill to provide. There was nothing, in fact, to make it compulsory.

THE O'CONOR DON
expressed himself willing to insert qualifying words in his Amendment, before "the Irish language," so that the number of six divisions of the subjects should not be increased.

§ MR. J. LOWTHER
said, he had no wish to stand out upon the point if it was the desire of the Committee, especially as he attached very little importance to it; and he would, therefore, at once say he would consider the matter on the Report.

THE O'CONOR DON
moved, in page 5, line 14, after "language," insert "and." He intended next to move to insert, after "history," "of England and Ireland." The hon. Member observed, that from the manner in which that portion of the sub-section was 331 worded, it seemed to imply that any history written in the English language would comply with the conditions of the section. He did not know whether that was meant, or that the history was to be the history of England alone.

§ MR. J. LOWTHER
assumed that what was meant was the history of Great Britain and Ireland.

§ MR. O'DONNELL
remarked, that Irishmen in general regarded "English history" as meaning the history of England. A great many Irishmen would arrive at the same conclusion upon that. A great deal of the difference of opinion which prevailed among different classes of Irish people arose from the fact that a great many Irishmen did not study the history of their own country. If Englishmen could be brought to study the history of Ireland, he thought the result would be satisfactory to both countries. He thought it should be of Great Britain and Ireland.

§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH
suggested that the sub-section should be—" The language, literature, and history of Great Britain and Ireland;" otherwise, they would be leaving out a great deal of Irish literature.

THE O'CONOR DON
thought that Amendment a better one, and would withdraw his own.

§ MR. E. JENKINS
observed, that he took it that the Irish language would be included by that wording.

MR. MACARTNEY
Yes, and the Gælie.

§ MR. PULESTON
And the Manx.

§ MR. BUTT
reminded the Committee that the legal language of Great Britain and Ireland was the English.

§ MR. E. JENKINS
again reminded the Committee that the Amendment now proposed would include the Irish language.

§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH
replied, that the Board would put a natural interpretation on the words of the sub-section.

THE O'CONOR DON
moved, in page 5, line 16, after "history," to in- 332 sert "or any one of them." He had intended to propose "or any two of them;" but he thought the present Amendment was preferable, in order that the knowledge of both should not disqualify.

§ MR. E. JENKINS
objected, that this would be reducing the requirements to a minimum, after Latin and Greek had been separated. It would then not be necessary for a boy to pass in any first-class subject; but two very small subjects indeed would enable him to obtain the advantages which the Bill held out.

§ MR. LYON PLAYFAIR
said, that what most struck him was the extraordinary magnitude of those prizes. They were, in fact, honour-prizes, and not pass-prizes. No such prizes were known in the corresponding institutions of Scotland. If this principle were finally adopted, they would have to cut their scholarships in two. If they so cut the subjects into parts, they must cut the scholarships also, and not give such prizes for such trifling subjects.

§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA
hoped the hon. Gentleman would leave the provision as it originally stood.

THE O'CONOR DON
feared that many boys would not be found able to pass in two modern languages at present, and to make it obligatory would be equivalent to abolishing both; while there were some boys who would devote themselves to learning either French, or German, or Italian. They would not, however, find in the schools with which the Bill dealt, either the boys to learn, or the teachers to teach, all three languages. He thought, therefore, if they desired to encourage the study of modern languages, the requirement should be confined to only one.

§ MR. J. LOWTHER,
referring to the remark of the right hon. Member for the University of Edinburgh (Mr. Lyon Playfair) as to there being honour-prizes, and as to the ease with which they were obtained, observed that, to obtain them, the student must pass in three subjects. Still, he had no vanity of authorship of the Amendment, and he thought what was suggested was an improvement on the original draft of the Bill, for the idea of the boys being expected to know those three languages was never contemplated. It ought to have been put in a category by itself; but he never contemplated all three.

§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN
said, he concurred in what the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) had said with regard to those languages. He wished, however, to express his regret that Latin and Greek had been separated by an earlier Amendment. He now had to suggest that an Amendment should be inserted in the Bill, on the Report, to the effect that if a boy passed in three subjects, it should be compulsory, for the purpose of his obtaining those rewards and distinctions, that one of the subjects should be Greek, or Latin, or mathematics. If they did that, they would then have an examination worthy of the competition for higher honours and rewards, and thus answer the intentions of the right hon. Member for the University of Edinburgh.

MR. SULLIVAN
wished to remind the Committee that in some of the Universities it was strongly recommended that an option should be allowed, not to take up Greek, but two modern languages instead.

§ MR. E. JENKINS
said, he thought that, looking at what they had been doing, it would be well if the Government would fix on certain subjects as essential.

§ MR. J. LOWTHER
explained, that he had stated he considered the suggestion an improvement, and would consider it on the Report.

§ MAJOR NOLAN
thought that, if there was such a thing as "cramming," which he did not believe, they had taken the best means of discouraging it.

§ MR. COURTNEY
moved, in page 6, line 1, to leave out "subjects," and insert "divisions."

§ MR. COURTNEY
moved, in page 6, line 2, after "himself," to insert— Unless the Board shall, for special reasons to be stated by them in each case, dispense with this condition of eligibility.

§ MR. COURTNEY
moved, in page 6, line 11, to leave out "October," and insert "April."

§ MR. LYON PLAYFAIR
said, that if the fees were kept at 10s. for the notices given by the students, it would be an intimation to poor Irish people that they need not apply for admission to any of the benefits which the Bill was intended to confer. He should move to leave out 10s. at page 6, line 14, and insert 2s. 6d.

§ MR. COURTNEY
moved to insert "divisions" instead of "subjects," consequent upon the same alteration previously made.

§ MR. COURTNEY
moved, in page 7, line 3, to leave out "in the proportion of one for every ten students who shall pass in three subjects at the least."

§ MR. J. LOWTHER
moved to insert after "course," in page 7, line 6— No student to whom such a prize is awarded shall continue to hold any exhibition under this Act previously held by him.

§ MR. COURTNEY
thought such a provision was scarcely necessary.

§ MR. MELDON
said, he had given Notice of an Amendment to leave out, in page 7, line 33, "not being a national school," and he observed that the right hon. Member for the University of Edinburgh (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had a similar Notice on the Paper. The subject would, he thought, require some amount of consideration and discussion, which could not be devoted to it now, as it was nearly 3 o'clock, and he therefore proposed to move his Amendment on the Report.