§ MR. PULESTON,who had the following Notice of Motion on the Paper:—
That in Committee of the whole House, no Member have power to move more than once either that the Chairman do report Progress or that the Chairman leave the Chair, and that no Member who has made one of those Motions have power to move the other in the same Committee,said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a Question of which I have given him private Notice—Whether, in view of such scenes as took place the other night, in pursuance of a system of obstruction which is now becoming a standing reproach, offensive to the dignity of the House and antagonistic to the best interests of the nation, the Government are prepared—["Order!"]
§ MR. CALLANI rise to a point of Order. I beg to ask, Mr. Speaker, Whether a Question which so palpably transgresses the Rules of the House, and which the Clerks at the Table, under your direction, will not receive, should be put on a subject affecting the privileges of Members of this House?
§ MR. SPEAKERAccording to the ordinary practice of the House no Question can be put involving matter of argument. I think some of the phrases contained in the Question as they reached me did so contain matter of argument.
§ MR. PULESTONI bow to your decision, Sir, and I will therefore only ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he will afford such facilities as will enable me to bring forward the Motion which stands in my name, or whether Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to take similar or other means to effect the same object?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERMr. Speaker, my hon. Friend has mentioned to me, before the commencement of the Business, that he proposed to put a Question to me with reference to the Notice which stands in his name for this evening, and which, pro- 825 bably, will not be reached till a late hour. The Question is whether we could give him any facility for bringing that question under consideration, or whether the Government themselves have any proposals to make upon the subject. The hon. Gentleman did not state to me the reasons upon which he proposed to bring forward that Question; but, of course, it would be affectation not to see that there is some connection between this Question having been put on the Paper at the present time and the proceedings which took place in this House a few nights ago. Well, with regard to, that matter I wish to say, on behalf of the' Government, that we are above all things anxious to promote in any way we can the convenience and proper conduct of Business in this House; and we ^consider that it may from time to time be desirable and necessary, as the character of the Business that comes before this House alters, as larger numbers of Questions are brought forward, as the nature of the discussions varies—it may from time to time be necessary to revise and reconsider the Rules under which our Business is conducted. At the same time, we are very conscious that those Rules are the result of many years and generations of experience; and we therefore feel that great care and pains ought to be exercised in making alterations in them. I think it would be particularly to be regretted if any alterations were proposed or discussed under this feeling—I do not like the word which was rising to my lips—but under any feeling of annoyance with reference to a particular proceeding. I am unwilling at the present time to express any opinion uopn what took place the other night. I think the judgment of this House and of the country is tolerably well formed upon that subject. I think we might only cause irritation and hinder the progress—the satisfactory progress —of Business by discussing what really needs no discussion. Therefore I would venture to express a hope that in what I am now saying I may not bring about a desultory or irregular discussion. But I would say, with reference to the Question of my hon. Friend, and to the Notice which stands in his name upon the Paper, that the Government have recently—before those transactions took place and still more since—given a great deal of attention to this subject; and we 826 are certainly of opinion that it may be desirable, calmly and with due consideration, to examine some portion of the Orders of the House, especially with regard to the question to which my hon. Friend refers—the question of Adjournment, or of reporting Progress, when the House is in Committee. And I may say that the particular proposal which my hon. Friend makes is one which, upon the face of it, commands our approval; and I think that, in substance at least, it would probably command the approval of a very large majority, if not of the whole, of the House, because I take it it only applies to the case of a Committee a Rule which works well in this House as a whole. At the same time, I think that, under the circumstances which I mentioned in the first instance, and bearing in mind the fact that it might be necessary, if we were altering our Rules at all, to make, perhaps, some other alterations besides this, and that it is undesirable to have frequent and desultory discussions upon such a matter—I think it would be better that we should not be in a hurry, and not attempt at present to deal with a question of this sort. My own opinion is, that the best course we could take would be to carry on our Business under the Rules which are at present in force, and to let us take time. The Government will undertake carefully to consider this matter, in consultation with yourself, Sir, and with the other authorities of the House, in order that we may be able next Session to propose a careful and well-considered revision of such parts of our Rules as may seem to require it. I may remind the House that there has been more than one Committee on Public Business, and that those Committees have made recommendations of an important character, some of which have been partly adopted, but several of which have never been adopted by the House. I think the recommendations of those Committees deserve serious consideration, and they shall receive it; and I think that, upon the whole, we should be best consulting the convenience and dignity of the House if we were at present to let this matter stand over. I trust we shall have no repetition of such scenes, upon which I do not wish to say more than I have already said; and I need not assure my hon. Friend that the convenience and dignity of this House are, and always will be, 827 a matter of great concern to Her Majesty's Government.
§ MR. WHALLEYSir, I wish to make a few observations in the nature of a personal explanation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the observations that he has addressed to the House, has done so in carefully worded and measured terms—["Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKERIf the hon. Member proposes to make a personal explanation, no doubt the House will receive it with its usual indulgence; but if the hon. Member merely rises to make some remarks on the Answer which has been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he will not be in Order.
§ MR. WHALLEYAs I understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he imputed to those who took part in the proceedings of the other night—["Order!"] If I am to be interrupted in this way I really do not know how to make my explanation; but I must endeavour by some means to protect myself, and I do not know how I can do it better than by moving the Adjournment of the House. After having sat for a quarter of a century in this House, I cannot submit to the imputations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and though conveyed in such measured terms they raise considerations most unjust and most unfair towards me, on which I claim on personal grounds to offer some reply. It is the more important that I should do so, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that he will not proceed to act on the Motion of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Puleston), relative to the privilege of moving to report Progress, or that the Chairman do leave the Chair. ["Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member having proposed to make a personal explanation is not entitled, as I have already said, to comment on the Answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ MR. WHALLEYThe observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were wholly uncalled for. ["Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is out of Order in the course he is pursuing; and if he disregards the ruling of the Chair I shall have to submit his conduct to the judgment of the House.
§ MR. WHALLEYI must make one more attempt, and after that I will acquiesce in what may be the desire of the House. I say that I cannot continue to discharge my duty in this House 828 under the rebuke which has been directly or indirectly cast upon me.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI rise to Order. It is only by the indulgence of the House that hon. Members are entitled to make personal explanations, and it is an indulgence that is never refused. I think that the hon. Member for Peterborough, in proceeding to make some remarks on the Answer I recently gave to the House, is entirely exceeding the privilege of Parliament, and can scarcely be considered as acting respectfully to you, Sir, after the observations you have made, in persisting in proceeding in the way he is doing.
§ MR. WHALLEYMy reason for proceeding is that the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer assume that those who took part in the recent proceedings of this House are justly exposed to the censure and indignation of this House and the country. The Government, in the part which they took, and the right hon. Gentleman still more so, I venture to say, in the course which he has taken, are justly exposed to greater complaint on the part of those hon. Members than—["Order!"]
§ SIR JAMES M'GAREL-HOGGI rise to Order. Is not the hon. Member for Peterborough acting exactly contrary, Mr. Speaker, to your orders?
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is altogether disregarding the injunctions that have fallen from the Chair, and unless the House thinks that I should act otherwise, seeing that we are now engaged upon the Questions before the House, and that the hon. Member by his conduct interrupts the Business of the House, I shall, with the concurrence of the House, call on such hon. Members who are desirous of putting Questions in the ordinary course of Business to do so; and I call on the hon. Member for Peterborough to resume his seat.