§ CLASS I.
§ (4.) £8,025, to complete the sum for Metropolitan Police Courts.
§ CLASS IV.
§ (5.) £82,490, to complete the sum for the British Museum.
§ MR. SPENCER WALPOLEexplained that the amount was the same as that asked for last year.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTasked whether, now the Natural History Collection was about to be removed to South Kensington, the Trustees would be able to make some provision for a refreshment-room, which was greatly needed at the Museum?
§ MR. SPENCER WALPOLEsaid, a refreshment-room had not been established before for want of space; but now the Natural History Collection was about to be removed he hoped—and, he might say, he believed—the Trustees would see their way to provide the necessary accommodation.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ CLASS V.
§
(6.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £53,176, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on. the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c, and for other Expenses in certain Colonies.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the financial position of Fiji had been improved by questionable means. We had copied the Dutch "culture" system of exacting labour in lieu of taxes, which we had formerly condemned, and which 587 had been abandoned, at a great sacrifice, by the Dutch Government. He was disappointed that Papers explaining the financial position of the Colony had not been produced, and, for the purpose of eliciting information, moved the reduction of the Vote by £30,000.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £23,176, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c, and for other Expenses in certain Colonies."—(Sir Charles W. Dilke.)
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he had promised, not to lay the Papers on the Table, but to state on this occasion the income and expenditure of Fiji. For 1877, the estimated expenditure, including £28,000 for irrigation works, was £71,000, and the revenue £40,400, not including the Imperial contribution of £35,000. The actual revenue was £37,138. For 1878 the expenditure was estimated at £67,000, and the revenue at £40,000. It was well known that the deficit was mainly caused by the great calamity by which the Islands had been visited, and which upset all the calculations on which the estimates were based. Sir Arthur Gordon, the Governor, had been pressed to keep down the expenditure as much as possible, and he had succeded in reducing his original estimate of the deficiency by a considerable amount.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLthought the Committee was entitled to some explanation of the "culture system," which had been, according to the hon. Member for Chelsea, adopted in Fiji. There seemed to be a probability of the charge of £100,000 on account of Fiji becoming an annual charge, and he cautioned the Committee against the increase of charges on behalf of the Colonies on the British Treasury. With regard to the present Governor of Fiji, Sir Arthur Gordon, who had had much experience in reference to the Colonies, he must say he was always a friend of the Natives in every Colony with which he was officially connected.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEwas sorry no explanation had been offered, because the Colonial Office must be acquainted with the facts. He did not suggest that the system involved any 588 oppression of the Natives; it was probable they preferred it to direct taxation; but it was admitted to be a bad system, and we had so often condemned the resort to it by other Governments, that some explanation ought to be given of its adoption for the first time in a British Colony. He and the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) divided the House against the annexation, believing that the Colony would not pay its expenses. So far that view was borne out by facts, and the matter was the more serious, because we were year by year increasing the number of Colonies that were dependent upon us, and he was afraid the present Vote was likely to become an annual one.
§ MR. ERRINGTONbore testimony to the ability with which Sir Arthur Gordon had dealt with two different systems of Coolie labour in the Colony. There were Coolies in the Island of Mauritius who, it appeared, were not entitled to be restored to their country, who might possibly be brought to Fiji, where labour was much wanted.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that the question of imported labour was engaging the attention of the Governor of Fiji, who would also report upon the system of Java culture. Sir Arthur Gordon took the deepest interest in the welfare of the Native races.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLthought that the surplus population of the East Indies might be advantageously employed in these Islands if fair laws were passed for their protection.
§ MR. ALDERMAN M'ARTHURbelieved that the House might safely leave the welfare of the Native races in the hands of the present Governor, who had acted with great ability and judgment. The Colony had made great strides in trade and prosperity during the last few years. Unfortunately its progress was arrested by the death of 30,000 of the Natives from the epidemic of the measles, but it was now recovering, and trade was much more flourishing.
§ SIR WILFRID LAWSONdid not see how the prosperity of the Colony was compatible with the demand made every year upon the Imperial Exchequer. Fiji ought to be a lesson against these annexations. He should support his hon. Friend if he divided the Committee.
§ MR. WHALLEYobserved that the Fijians regarded the hon. Member for 589 Lambeth (Mr. M'Arthur) as the father of the Colony; and it was perhaps the most important spot on the whole globe for the purpose of British traffic, as it was the only point at which vessels could touch between Vancouver's Island and New Zealand. He believed that no money could be voted for a better purpose than that which was asked for by Her Majesty's Government. He considered the remarks of the hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) unpatriotic.
§ MR. O'DONNELLthought that Her Majesty's Government were engaged in running an extensive slave-holding business in Fiji, and the Committee should not assist the Colonial Office in obtaining the Vote of £30,000 from the House to carry on the system.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that no such system as the hon. Member had described was in force.
§ SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsupported the Vote, but expressed a hope that next Session the Government would give full explanations as to what had been done in this Colony, and state what its prospects were.
§ MR. PARNELLobserved that the House had always understood that when the present Government came into office they would carry out a spirited policy. The Government, however, appeared to have found out that that was not so easy, and that it was not safe to go to war with Russia. [Cries of "Question!"] So, in order to make the people of this country feel that they were carrying out a spirited foreign policy, they devoted their attention to a system of foreign annexations—that was to say, they had annexed a variety of small States and countries which were unable to take care of themselves. They had had the Transvaal, and now they had the Fijian Islanders, who, as far as he could make out, were getting on tolerably well without our rule, and he thought it was always better in the long run to allow people to follow out their own ideas with reference to their government. Our government appeared to be more disastrous to those Islanders than the Colorado potato beetle was likely to be to this country, for almost as soon as we set foot on their shores the measles swept off thousands of the inhabitants. The idea entertained by some missionaries seemed to be that the Fijians were 590 not being converted to Christianity fast enough, and they had induced the Government to convert the ruling power of the Island into a gigantic Church Missionary Society. The Government having failed to convert the people of Ireland, were trying to convert the inhabitants of a smaller Island, although it was further off. He thought that in addition to this Vote there should be a Vote for a Bishop of Fiji, or at least a dean, or a junior dean, for Fiji. He did not know whether the Government contemplated that arrangement within the scope of their ideas; but all he could say was he should be glad to encourage them as far as he could in any such extravagant purpose. The Government after having annexed the Fiji Islands, proceeded, in pursuance of their usual policy, to stir up savages to fight against other tribes, and the prisoners who were taken were executed after a mere mockery of a trial. If it was necessary to make an example of those poor men, it ought to have been done in a legal and proper manner. He did not believe that on the evidence which was given against them any Member of the Government would hang a hound in his kennel.
§ MR. RYLANDSthought the Committee should bring back their attention to the point under discussion. The proposal made by the hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke) was to reduce the amount of this particular Vote by £30,000, and this was by way of a protest against the policy of Her Majesty's Government. There was no doubt that the Papers on the Table of the House presented the financial position of Fiji as almost helpless. The other night the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies was unable to give information as to the finances of Fiji; but the Committee was now in possession of all the particulars to frame a Budget, for they were in the Papers published. And a most melancholy statement it was, for it showed that there was no prospect of Fiji being able to pay more than half the expenses of Government. Not only was the country now going to the bad at the rate of £40,000 a-year, but there was an indebtedness which there was no expectation of paying off. Out of a loan of £209,000, £100,000 was not to be paid until Fiji had more prosperous days; but still there was £109,000 without any assurance that the revenue 591 would meet it. This position was almost unprecedented in the history of any Colony under British rule; and in order to raise a revenue there was introduced a principle so near to that of slavery, that a most careful consideration was called for before it was adopted. He had only risen to bring back the Committee to the point from which they started. He supported the rejection of the Vote, because there was no satisfactory assurance upon which to form any expectations that the burden would be lightened. They had been told that having lent a sum of £100,000 they would not be called upon for further Votes. But, notwithstanding that assurance, the Committee was now called on for this Vote, and probably would have to make larger Votes in future years.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 133: Majority 115.—(Div. List, No. 307.)
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. PARNELLwished, before the Vote was agreed to, to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, how the Court was constituted which tried these 37 persons, some of whom were executed and others sentenced to long periods of imprisonment? He wished to know, whether these trials took place before juries, and whether any opportunity was afforded to the prisoners for obtaining evidence for their defence? He also wished to know, how many hours or days the trial of these persons lasted, and also the class of persons who were witnesses, whether they were Natives, and whether they understood the obligations they entered into in giving testimony?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he could not say what the witnesses understood. He presumed that they gave evidence in a proper manner, and that the Court was constituted in the regular way.
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, he wanted to know what the "regular way" was. He complained that the hon. Member had not answered his Questions, and therefore he should repeat them.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, there was full information to be found in the Papers before the Committee.
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, he could not find it there. The information was of the most meagre character. The Committee was entitled to the fullest information, and he should, therefore, move to reduce the Vote by £29,000.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, he must call the attention of the Committee to the inconvenience that would arise if Motions were to be made without any apparent distinguishing characteristic from Motions already made in Committee. The object of moving the reduction of a Vote was either to challenge the Vote entirely or to challenge a certain item in it; and it would not be in accordance with the practice of the Committee to submit a series of Motions, each of them raising the same issue which had been practically decided by Motions previously submitted to the Committee.
§ MR. PARNELLthought the matter to which he had directed attention was of a different nature from that on which the Committee had voted. He referred to the trial of certain Islanders, and the insufficiency of the information given with respect to those proceedings.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, that an Amendment had been submitted to the Committee by the hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke), and he was unable to see that this proposition raised a separate question.
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, he would be glad to be guided by the judgment of the Chairman as to the reduction which he ought to propose.
§ MR. PARNELLproposed to reduce the Vote by £28,000.
§ MR. PARNELLasked for further information as to the expenses of trying the savages mentioned in the Vote. He objected to them.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that he had given all the information he could, when the hon. Member was not present in the House. The item under which these expenses were included amounted to over £13,000.
§ MR. PARNELL moved the reduction of the Vote by £13,000.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £39,532, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
593
necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c, and for other Expenses in certain Colonies."—(Mr. Parnell.)
§ SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked whether further information could not be obtained by next Session?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he had given all the information which the Government possessed, but he would endeavour to procure more by next Session.
§ MR. PARNELLupon that understanding would withdraw the Amendment.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £100,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c, and for other Expenses in certain Colonies.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLproposed to reduce the Vote by £25,000. He said that the information before them was very scanty. He feared that this was only the first instalment of the expenses of this annexation. He understood that the Government in the Colony had sweetened the operation of annexation by the bribery of persons called "winklers" and land jobbers, and other Colonial adventurers who had an interest in the transaction. ["Oh, oh!"] This was an important question, and though late at night, and late in the Session, he would not be deterred by interruptions from having a fair discussion upon it. He had the authority of a gentleman for saying that Sir Theophilus Shepstone was in great danger, and was 600 miles from any support whatever, with no communication behind except bullock roads. ["Name!"] He was not at liberty to give the name; but we had taken upon ourselves great responsibilities, great dangers, and great difficulties. He held that the £25,000, of the sum of £100,000 should not be applied to paying off the speculators who had chosen to pay their money to this bankrupt State.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £75,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c, and for other Expenses in certain Colonies."—(Sir George Campbell.)
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, no payment would be made out of the Vote without due inquiry. All claims put forward against the Government would be rigorously investigated, and none would be acknowledged, unless it could be proved to have been fairly incurred. Of the total sum, £25,000 was required to pay the interest on the debt of the Colony; a similar sum for the removal of the troops, and the other items of expenditure were all set out in the Papers which were before the House.
§ MR. COURTNEYsupported the reduction of the Vote, on the ground that £25,000 was the amount expended on the removal of the troops. He maintained that they were not bound to put the Transvaal State in a better financial condition with respect to its creditors than it was before annexation. He believed that they were embarking on an undertaking which would cost this country annually a considerable sum of money, and should like to have some information as to the system of government which was to be established in the Transvaal State.
§ MR. A. M'ARTHURstated, that everybody of his acquaintance who was connected with South Africa heartily approved the annexation of the Transvaal.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, Her Majesty's Government of course expected the Colony to pay its own way in future; but they were bound to take special steps to meet the emergency which had arisen. In answer to the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney), he could only say that the question of the future government of the State was receiving the anxious attention of Her Majesty's Government, and that they were desirous to consult as far as possible local feeling.
§ SIR JOHN LUBBOCKthought the Colonies in South Africa ought to have been invited to contribute to the expense of the annexation.
§ MR. PARNELLsaid, that he had never known of any case in which a Govern- 595 ment supplanting a preceding Government by force, as in the present case, refused to acknowledge the principal and interest of the debt due by the annexed territory.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 14; Noes 121: Majority 107.—(Div. List, No. 308.)
§ MR. O'DONNELLmoved the rejection of the whole Vote, contending that the policy of annexation as carried out by the Government was a mockery of a constitutional form.
§ MR. PARNELLspoke against the annexation of the Transvaal.
§ Original Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 119; Noes 2: Majority 117.—(Div. List, No. 309.)