HC Deb 25 February 1870 vol 199 cc815-26
MR. GOLDNEY

said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the present extent and condition of the Royal Forests. He wished to call attention not only to forests, but to woodlands also—although many of the latter had been disafforested. There were now only two forests that came under the denomination of Royal Forests—namely, the New Forest and the Forest of Dean. These forests and certain wood-lands, which included about 150,000 acres, had been for a very long time almost, if not quite unproductive to the country. There had been a long course of legislation with regard to Royal Forests. By an Act passed in the 10th Geo. IV. all the Crown lands were put under the charge of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, but they (the Commissioners) were prevented from dealing in any way with forest land, because it was then considered necessary for the supply of timber to the navy. But that cause for maintaining them in their present state had become practically obsolete by the introduction of iron ships; and the result had been that for a great number of years the maintenance of these extensive lands had been a waste of public property. He would recommend that the Government, instead of going to law to insist upon Crown rights, which he believed were now almost, if not entirely, exploded, should consider whether it would not be possible to deal with these lands so as to obtain a large fund from them, and whether certain portions of these forest lands should not be sold instead of being kept in their present unproductive condition. Of the 89,000 acres forming the New Forest 5,000 or 6,000 were hold by the Crown in severalty, and over 63,000 acres the Crown had undisputed right to the soil and timber, subject only to certain common rights over portions of them; and the Crown had the right also of closing, and keeping enclosed, for the growth of timber, some 16,000 acres. The question of deer was no longer in the way, for, under under the provisions of an Act of Parliament passed in 1851, the maintenance of deer in the forest had been entirely given up. The Crown, however, still retained the right of planting this land, and of excluding the commoners from a large portion of it, and, in fact, from the whole between November and May, and from the middle of June to the middle of July. The exercise of this right gave rise to constant complaints and dissatisfaction among the persons interested, or claiming to be interested in certain feeding-rights. Last year a long Report on the subject was presented to the House of Lords by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, and a Select Committee appointed by that House fully and carefully investigated this subject. He might remark that one of the Members of that Committee was the Duke of Somerset, who, when Lord Seymour, held for many years the office of First Commissioner of Works. Well, that Committee stated in their Report, in reference to the New Forest, that the interests of the Crown and of the com- moners were constantly at variance, and that, in the opinion of the Committee, a Commission ought to be appointed to allot to the Crown a certain part of the Forest, free from all common rights, and to leave the remainder to the commoners. That course had already been pursued with regard To several other woods and forests. He did not believe that during the last twenty-five years the Department of Woods and Forests had practically benefited to the extent of a single farthing from the possession of the 150,000 acres of forest and woodland held by them. It was true that, on the face of the accounts annually submitted to the House, there was a balance in favour of the office amounting to some £11,000 or £12,000, the average receipts being about £45,000 or £46,000, and the average expenditure about £35,000 or £36,000. The Office of Woods and Forests still kept up the old machinery that had been laughed at, and would continue to be laughed at so long as it was kept up; they employed a large number of rangers, deputy-rangers, verderers, woodmen, bailiffs, sub-bailiffs, and other salaried officials, all of whom were necessary to be maintained under the Forest Laws, but who were now practically of no use either to the public or the Crown, and these salaries and the departmental expenses disposed of the small balance. A general impression had got abroad that the officials in the Department of Woods and Forests not only deemed it their duty but that they were bound to maintain in its integrity all the property of the Crown, and to deal with it solely with the view of improving its monetary value for the benefit to the successor to the Crown, notwithstanding the fact that these lands had been practically vested in the State for upwards of 170 years; but he considered that the State had a right to deal with some of those lands in such a manner as to benefit the people, irrespectively of the question of pounds, shillings, and pence. In the case of Victoria and Battersea Parks, Acts of Parliament were passed authorizing the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to appropriate part of the monies arising from the sale or exchange of Crown lands, and to apply such monies to the purchase of the parks, limiting the amount in the latter case to some £200,000 or £300,000. People were daily becoming more and more convinced of the neces- sity for securing open spaces in the vicinity of London and other large towns for the enjoyment and recreation of the people. Now, with, regard to these 150,000 acres—and he was not alluding to the parks, forests, and lands necessary for the personal enjoyment of the Sovereign, such as Windsor Park and Parkhurst, in the Isle of Wight—there would, he believed, be allotted to the Crown, after compensation had been given to the various parties interested, some 75,000 or 80,000 acres. Now, if half that property were sold, it would, in the opinion of persons well qualified to judge, produce nearly £2,000,000. With that sum a large quantity of the remaining land, now lying waste, might be brought into profitable cultivation, and a large number of persons employed who were now out of work, while at same time great satisfaction would be given to those who lived on the borders of the forests. In addition, there would be a fund in existence which would obviate the necessity of imposing further burdens on the already over-taxed population for the establishment and maintenance of recreation grounds in the vicinity of large towns. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would take into consideration the desirability of removing by statute the restrictions by which the Commissioners of Woods and Forests were at present bound as regarded these woodlands. They had often been taunted for the course they pursued, but, in point of fact, they could not act otherwise, as the law allowed them no discretion, but defined the rules by which their conduct must be guided. Their simple duty was to manage the lands so as to make them produce as much money as possible. If they were empowered to utilize these woods by the sale of some, and the appropriation of others for the benefit of the public, without reference to more pecuniary considerations, a great benefit would be conferred on the community.

MR. C. READ

desired to supplement his hon. Friend's remarks with reference to the New Forest, by a few observations. He considered this a very important question when they remembered the number of people who had to leave the country from want of employment, and the quantity of foreign food we imported, that so many thousands of acres should be allowed to continue unproductive. It was no use as a Royal domain, and last year it only produced a paltry net rent of £1,768, for growing timber that was not required for the Navy. It certainly employed a goodly number of officials, and it allowed the commoners to starve a few cattle and ponies, and it also encouraged a predatory population. Some of the waste lands of this country were miserably poor and barren, and must always remain in a state of nature; some were rocky and full of stones, and must be regarded simply as mountain pasture; and other parts would not pay for the engineering skill and other labour required for their improvement, but in the New Forest no such difficulty existed, and there was no necessity for any great amount of arterial drainage. It was simply necessary to clear out the present streams, and there would be plenty of fall for the water. Then there was an abundance of gravel for making good roads, a fair amount of clay for making bricks. The climate was excellent, while the locality was good and skirted by railways. Some of the soil ranged from a hungry gravel to a rich vegetable loam, and a great portion of it would produce immense quantities of corn, roots, and artificial grasses. It might be thought, perhaps, that he was over-estimating the quality of the land in the forest, but he would merely state certain facts which had been brought under his notice. There was a farm there called New Park, which was held by Mr. Dickinson, a gentleman well-known in agricultural circles as a zealous experimental farmer, and still more widely known to the general public as the most successful cultivator of Italian rye grass in the world. Mr. Dickinson having had a twenty-one years' lease, forthwith spent £1,000 in improving and enlarging the house. The farm consisted of 430 acres, and the rent was £816 a year, so that for about a hundred and fortieth part of the area he paid nearly one-half of the net revenue that came to the Crown. The ground was well adapted for the growth of corn and roots, for Mr. Dickinson, in competing at shows open to all England, had always been successful with his wheat and barley, and last year he won second prizes with all the kinds of mangold wurzel he exhibited. A great portion of the New Forest was quite as good land as that on Mr. Dickinson's farm. It was now largely planted with Scotch fir, which was the most valueless fir that could be grown, and which ought only to be planted on a shaky morass or a blowing sand. Swine were actually allowed to root up the fine grasses, the fern, sedge, and coarse grass were cut off and sold, and commoners were permitted to take away turf and burn it. No doubt a large portion of the forest ought to be sold. This would bring a considerable sum of money into Her Majesty's Exchequer, and there would be an excellent opportunity, if his view were adopted, for the creation of small freeholders, which would be free from all questions arising between landlord and tenant. There were admirable sites for private residences and good farms over the entire forest. The beauty of the country, however, ought to be preserved, and with this object in view it would be desirable to sell the ornamental timber with the land. He thought that a few patches of corn, and of bright green turnips, would really not be unacceptable in those dreary wastes; and a sufficient portion should be reserved for the recreation of persons resident in the neighbourhood, and allotments, also, might be made for cottage gardens. There were, however, some very serious drawbacks towards investment in property of this description. Supposing a person should sell out from the funds and invest in forest land, he might possibly give £25 for it per acre, and spend another £25 for it in erecting farm buildings, and cottages, and making roads, as well as enclosing and draining the land; he might also be called upon to furnish a site for a school, and contribute towards its maintenance; and perhaps he might have to help to build a new church, and of course to contribute to all the parochial charities of the neighbourhood. After doing all these things, he would find probably a net income equal to about 3 per cent on his investment, and that his income was taxed 10 per cent or more for local charges, and the maintenance of the poor of the district. It would be a poor consolation to such a person to know that when he died his executors would escape 1 or 2 per cent in respect of probate duty.

MR. STANSFELD

said, that the question before the House was one of considerable interest and importance. The hon. Gentleman who had brought it forward had directed his remarks particu- larly to the administration of the New Forest, the largest of our forests; and it might be well that he should point out that his (Mr. Goldney's) remarks and those of the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. C. Read) had no practical application except to the case of that property. The Forest of Dean was a forest beneath whose soil there were mineral treasures, and the tenure was subject to mineral rights both above and below the ground. It would not be profitable, as they were advised, to sell the interests of the Crown in that property. As to a considerable number of small forests winch belonged to the Crown, his hon. Friend opposite must be aware that the plantations on them were young, and he need not remind him or the hon. Member for South Norfolk that nothing could be more improvident than to sell on a large scale what he might call "green crops;" for, although those plantations were of great growing value, it would not be easy to go into the market and find purchasers for them at a profitable rate. In some instances profit could not be realized for a quarter of a century. He came, in the next place, to the New Forest, and here he wished to say a word as to what had been stated about the farm of Mr. Dickinson. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. C. Read) in referring to it had argued that a large portion of the New Forest might be made to produce considerable crops, though where these portions were he had omitted to define. Almost in his next sentence, however, the hon. Gentleman informed the House that a great part of the forest consisted of plantations of Scotch firs, which was a wood of little value. But did it never occur to the hon. Gentleman that those Scotch firs had been planted in such abundance because the soil was not fitted to grow timber of a more valuable description, and that such a soil was not likely to produce prize crops? The farm which had been alluded to was, he might add, one which had probably been selected by its occupier for the expenditure of a large capital, and could not be compared with the rest of the land in the forest; but he was not by any means prepared to say that no change for the better could be made in the administration of the New Forest. The subject had been brought under the consideration of the Government during the Recess, and he and one of his Colleagues wont down and spent one or two pleasant days in exploring the beautiful scenery in that quarter. They had come to the conclusion that it would be very important to ascertain, on as reliable data as they could procure, the financial pros and cons as to the two systems—of managing the forest as a forest, exercising the full planting powers of the Crown, or, on the other hand, asking Parliament to disafforest it and deal with the lands as the lauds of other forests had been dealt with on former occasions. They felt, however, that sufficient data were as yet wanting to enable them to come to a sound decision in the matter, and it would not do to deal with so important a property, in which not only the reigning Sovereign, but the Royal House itself, was interested, without further information. The Treasury had accordingly instructed the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to obtain such a business-like financial statement as might be expected from a land agent by a Lord of the Manor or the owner of an estate as to the probable value to the Crown and the public of adopting the one or the other of the systems which he had just mentioned. The Report in answer to these instructions would, he had no doubt, be received in the course of the Session, and if the result were such as to convince the Government that it would be more for the interest of the Crown, as well as of the public, to deal with the forest in some such way as had been indicated, there would be plenty of time for a Bill next Session, before which the forms of the House would not allow it to be introduced. Before he sat down he wished to say a word on what had fallen from the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney) as to the right and expediency of dealing with this property without relation to pounds, shillings, and pence. His hon. Friend, with reference to Victoria Park, seemed to be under the impression that the property of the Crown had been given away for the benefit of the public. If his recollection served him aright that was not the case; for a fair equivalent, it was felt, was received for what was given up. His hon. Friend could not fail to remember that one of the first acts of the Sovereign on ascending the throne was one by which the Sovereign surrendered the hereditary revenues in return for the Civil list. That act was regarded as a contract or bargain between the occupant of the Throne and the Parliament of this country, and they could not fail to recognize the fact that not only the Commissioners of Woods, but that House and Parliament, were bound to preserve the inheritance and capital of those Crown estates intact. Dr. Broom, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, took this view of the question, and observed— The capital of the land revenue is the reversion of the Crown; the income belongs for the time to the public. The Commissioners of Woods are, therefore, bound to take care that the one is not sacrificed to the other. On behalf of the public they have to obtain as large an income as possible, and it is their duty on behalf of the Crown to see that no part of the capital is sacrificed in order to increase the immediate income. That he believed to be a sound statement of the law and of Parliamentary obligation. With regard to that part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks which related to Epping Forest, it would be remembered that an Address had been presented by that House to Her Majesty, and that the subject had been referred by Her Majesty's Answer to the consideration of the Government, and he had no doubt that, without in any way infringing upon the rights of the Crown or the estate and reversion which attached to these forests, some available means would be found to secure the object which the hon. Gentleman desired.

VISCOUNT ENFIELD

said, he did not desire to enter into the main question, but rose for the purpose of defending those whom the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. C. Read) had described as a "poaching and predatory population." Residing, as he did, in that district, he could assure the House that that description was entirely inapplicable, and he regretted that the hon. Member should, upon what was probably mere hearsay, have used such a harsh expression towards those who, though they might be poor, were as honest as the population of any county in the kingdom. In many instances efforts had been made to procure for them employment in other parts of the world, but the assistance had been refused, those to whom it had been offered preferring to remain at home and earn a livelihood which, if precarious, was at all events honest. He trusted that in any arrangements made their rights would not be disregarded. Incidentally, he might express his regret that when changes were made in the administration of certain offices, arrangements were not made to secure for the Crown lands more direct representation in that House.

SIR JOHN TRELAWNY

said, in answer to the wish expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, that some data could be found on which to deal with this question, he would observe that the data which the right hon. Gentleman required were furnished in a Return for which he himself (Sir John Trelawny) had moved as far back as 1847. The facts brought to light by that Return were so strong that Lord Duncan made use of them in 1848 to show that, while money was wanted for public purposes, and was to be obtained, it was only right that these national resources should be turned to account, rather than that the people should be unnecessarily taxed, and induced the House to appoint a Committee, on which he (Sir John Trelawny) had the honour to serve, to inquire into the whole subject of Woods and Forests; and their investigations were of the most complete and detailed character. The Return which was furnished showed the mode in which the property was managed, and afforded exact information of the income and expenditure during a long series of years. It appeared from the Return that the profits of management were almost nil, and in it the right hon. Gentleman would probably find what he required.

MR. BONHAM CARTER

said, he took a deep interest in this subject, because he had always felt that in the county to which he belonged (Hampshire), there existed a very large tract of land from which neither the county nor the country derived its due share of benefit. It was at one time urged that the object of the New Forest was to supply the dockyard at Portsmouth with Navy timber. A Return for which he, however, moved two years ago, showed that the quantity of oak timber sold in 1866 was nil, and he believed the same answer would be equally applicable for many preceding years. In fact, the supply of Navy timber obtained from that forest had never in any one year been so much as would be required in the construction of a frigate, and while this was held out to be its use, immense sales of ship timber had taken place at Portsmouth Dockyard, in consequence of the almost exclusive use of iron. By the Act of 14 & 15 Vict. the New Forest was disafforested as regarded deer, and a bargain was made, which was not a bad one for the country if it had been properly carried out. A very large number of fir trees were then planted, and in the recent fanning of the land, as he might term it, 3,000,000 fir trees had been planted to 2,000.000 of oak. There was no doubt that the character of the land varied exceedingly, and that fir could be planted upon land that would not grow oak, and no doubt in this respect the forest was under able management; but part of the object of the Department being to show good returns, they had cut not only oak but beech, a process which was inimical to the beauty of the sylvan scenery, as the forest contained some of the finest beech in England. It might be supposed that those beech trees when cut were very profitable, but that was not the fact. There were hardly any roads in the district, so that the beech which was cut did not fetch more than half the price which any hon. Member could obtain for such timber cut on his own woodlands, the average of the late sales having been no more than 3¾d. per cubic foot. The Department had not felt themselves authorized to expend money on the making of roads, and as they paid no rates or taxes the neighbourhood did not, of course, feel disposed to come to their assistance, while railroad communication had unfortunately received no encouragement. The South Western Railway had been obliged to take a wide circuit for the very purpose of avoiding a large district of the forest, in which it would have doubled or trebled the value of the soil. He did not speak on this subject entirely without knowledge, for he happened to reside near a small forest belonging to the Government, Woolmer Forest—retained as subsidiary to Aldershot, and very efficient for that purpose. It consisted of 6,000 or 7,000 acres of pure sand, and had been valued by Mr. Clutton at the time of which the hon. Baronet (Sir John Trelawny) had spoken at an annual value of 4s. an acre, or about £6 an acre for the freehold. The Government disposed by Act of Parliament of the rights of the parochial commoners, and gave up to the commoners a large margin of exactly the same quality of land, in extent from 1,500 to 2,000 acres. This land was subsequently allotted under the Enclosure Acts, and was now selling in large quantities at £15 an acre, and in small quantities at from £30 to £40 an acre. And the purchasers of the smaller plots, although the land was of the poor character he had described, were able to turn them to good advantage on account of the facilities afforded by the proximity of the railway. He did not see why a somewhat similar course should not be pursued by the Government. He was not one of those who wished to enter upon the line of action deprecated by his hon. Friend on the Treasury Bench—that of suddenly selling a large estate; but he was quite certain that, under judicious management by the Department which controlled these large districts of Crown property, and by an increase of their powers, it would be possible gradually to effect sales at prices very much higher than the lands would fetch as mere timber land. By that means not only would the value of the parts still remaining in the hands of the Crown be increased year by year, but persons with capital, who were desirous of residences of a picturesque character, would be induced to lay out money in improving the land; and the districts themselves would gradually become populated and filled with a resident gentry, employing labour and laying out capital. He was glad to hear; that the attention of the Government was directed to this subject. It was one that would well repay attention; and he was quite sure that, if investigation of the subject were undertaken and vigorously carried out by the Department, not only would the districts themselves very greatly benefit, but the Treasury would have reason to feel well satisfied with the results.