HC Deb 22 November 1867 vol 190 cc142-4
LORD ELCHO

asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the decision of the Committee composed of Officers of the Regular Army and of Civilians, which was appointed to consider and report upon the various arms submitted for trial, in accordance with the terms of the War Office advertisement issued in October last, by which "gunmakers and others" were invited to propose "breech-loading rifles which may replace the present service rifles in future manufacture," will be considered final if not, what are the grounds for not accepting as final the decision of a Committee which was invited "to report upon the beat breech-loading rifle for use in the Army;" and, to what further inquiry will these arms be submitted, by whom will it be conducted, and within what period of time may it be expected that a final decision will come to as to the future service rifle?

SIR JOHN PKAINGTON

The Question my noble Friend has put to me is rather a complicated one, but I will answer it as clearly as I can. The Question refers in the first instance to the Committee which was decided on by my right hon. and gallant predecessor (General Peel) shortly before he left office, to determine a competition between breech-loading rifles, which were to be sent in on the terms contained in an advertisement. My right hon. and gallant Friend offered a considerable sum of money by way of prizes for the best of those arms. The Committee of adjudication is composed of five gentlemen—two civilians, Lord Spencer and Mr. Ross, and three military officers—Colonel Fletcher, of the Guards; Captain Rawlins, of the 43rd; and Captain M'Kinnon, of the 23rd Regiment. Colonel Fletcher was the President. My noble Friend asks me whether the decision of that Committee is to be considered as final. Now, the decision of the Committee as regards the prizes to be given cannot be considered as final in respect of the arm to be adopted, for reasons which I will explain. No doubt, at the time my right hon. and gallant Friend determined on appointing the Committee he hoped that its decision would be final, and that the arm which received the first prize would be finally selected as the permanent arm for the British service. I should observe that I find no record in the War Office of what the direct intentions of my right hon. and gallant Friend were; but I imagine that what subsequently occurred was not foreseen by him or anybody else—namely, that nearly 100 arms were sent in for this competition. Out of that number the great majority, or nearly seventy I think, did not comply with the conditions of the advertisement, and consequently the competition for the prizes was limited to a small minority of the arms sent in. The question then arises what course ought the Committee to take in reference to those weapons which are not in conformity with the terms of the advertisement? My noble Friend implies in his Question that the Committee was invited "to report upon the best breech-loading rifle for use in the army." These words are not to be found in any public paper. They may have been contained in a letter from my right hon. and gallant Friend. My noble Friend goes on to ask, "To what further inquiry will these arms be submitted?" The arms the Committee have sat on will not be submitted to any further inquiry. The question then arises with reference to the course the Committee is to take with regard to the large number that were not properly admissible; and it may be desirable to have an inquiry as to those seventy weapons, many of which may be of a very valuable character, though they do not comply with the terms of the advertisement. Consequently, I have sought for information in the Office as to what were the precise intentions of my right hon. and gallant Friend, and I find the belief there to be that he intended to have the duty of the Committee confined to deciding as to what arms ought to receive the prizes. Then comes the question how this matter is to be decided. The gentlemen composing the Committee having already sacrificed a great deal of time to an inquiry which turned out to be very laborious, I could not assume that they would be willing to embark in another investigation, or that, in the case of the military officers, the Commander-in-Chief would be willing that they should do so. I believe the present inquiry will not be concluded for some time, and, no doubt, the other would also last a very considerable period. If, however, the gentlemen composing the Committee should be willing to embark in it, and the Commander-in-Chief should give his consent, I believe I could not act with greater advantage to the public service than by committing such an inquiry to gentlemen to whom the Government and the country are already so much indebted. In that case their decision cannot be arrived at in less than a year.

MR. NEWDEGATE

asked the right hon. Baronet whether he would have any objection to lay on the table a Return of the number of muskets which had been converted into breech-loaders, and also the number of Enfields available for conversion?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

believed that such a Return had already been laid on the table; but if not, there would be no objection to producing one.