HC Deb 12 July 1867 vol 188 cc1487-91

Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Supply.

SUPPLY — CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £150,035, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Superannuation and Retired Allowances to Persons formerly employed in the Public Service.

MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE

said, that it would be unjust to hon. Members who had Motions upon going into Committee of Supply if Supply were to be taken at that hour—quarter past twelve, and especially so when the understanding was that Supply should not be taken after ten on Friday nights.

MR. HUNT

said, that this Session was a peculiar one, for in consequence of the time occupied by the Reform Bill they had not been able to take Supply in the usual course. If any Vote were seriously contested he should be willing to postpone it.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he hoped that they would not be asked to go into Supply at so late an hour.

LORD ELCHO

said, that he had put off a notice on going into Committee of Supply, in the hope of getting a measure considered which stood No. 13 on the Paper.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he had certainly understood that the arrangement made by the Government with the hon. Member for Galway that morning was, that the latter was to put off his Motion in order to allow the Reform Bill to be proceeded with, but that no other measure was to be taken by the Government.

MR. HUNT

said, he would remind hon. Members that they would lose nothing by their assenting to the Government taking a few unopposed Votes in Committee of Supply.

GENERAL DUNNE

said, he had a Notice on the Paper before going into Supply which he should certainly like to bring on if the hour were not so late.

MR. WHALLEY

said, their attention was called by the Secretary of the Treasury to a Vote for £150,000, whereas on looking at the Paper he found the sum to be £197,000. He complained of the absence of information as to the Votes taken on account, and also of the large amount asked for superannuation allowances.

MR. HUNT

said, that a Return had been presented showing the sums already voted and those to be voted. Returns respecting the superannuation allowances had been also presented to Parliament.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he must protest against going on at that late hour with Votes in Supply, and therefore moved that the Chairman report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Lusk.)

The Committee divided: — Ayes 3; Noes 69: Majority 66.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

MR. WHALLEY

said, he wished to call attention to the number of superannuations caused by changes in departments, or the alteration and abolition of offices, and to ask for some explanation on the matter.

MR. HUNT

said, that it frequently happened that when an office was abolished there were some clerks who were too old to be transferred to others, and who were not above the age at which they could claim their retiring allowance. The abolition of offices was mostly effected by Act of Parliament, and the Government had no option in the matter.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he could not imagine how it was that clerks could not be transferred to other offices on the abolition of particular departments. There were several cases in the Votes in which the clerks superannuated were comparatively young, and yet were allowed to retire on full pensions.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that there was great weight in what the hon. Member opposite said, that these offices were abolished by Act of Parliament. Hon. Members sat there night after night passing Bills involving enormous expense in superannuations, and raising no voice against them until a year or two afterwards, when the Estimates for the retiring allowances came before them.

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, he concurred in what had been said by the hon. Member for Pontefract.

MR. FINLAY

said, the Vote had incurred £11,000, being 6 per cent on the whole Vote.

MR. WHALLEY

said, he considered that sixty-seven years of age was much too early for retirement.

MR. HUNT

said, that the Act of 1859 settled the question of pensions.

MR. CHILDERS

said, the law was that after sixty years of age an officer who had served forty years was entitled to a pension of two-thirds of his salary.

(2.) £638, Toulonese and Corsican Emigrants, &c.

(3.) £325, Refuge for the Destitute.

(4.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £1,580, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Subsistence of Polish Refugees, and Allowances to distressed Spaniards.

MR. WHALLEY

said, that Polish insurrections were the result of intrigues of the Roman Catholic priesthood against the heretic church of Russia. It was nut just to the people of this country to encourage such proceedings.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he wished to inquire how those annuities were granted, and how long they were to last?

MR. HUNT

said, the Vote was £500 less than last year. Some addition to the Vote was sanctioned by the late Lord Palmerston at the instance of the late Lord Dudley Stuart.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he would ask, whether the hon. Member for Peterborough could expect the Government to commit a breach of faith with these people.

MR. WHALLEY

said, he thought the interruption of the hon. Member was impertinent. He had no right to imagine that he desired any breach of faith.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Whalley.)

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(5.) £38,040, to complete the sum for Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions.

(6.) £27,400, to complete the sum for Distressed British Seamen Abroad.

(7.) £2,710, Miscellaneous Charges formerly on the Civil List, &c.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, the charges were curious, and asked whether they would ever cease.

MR. HUNT

said, they had existed for many years, and supposed they must continue.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £1,183, to complete the sum for Public Infirmaries (Ireland).

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Mr. Lusk,)—put, and negatived.

(9.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £11,845, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the support of certain Hospitals in Dublin, and for the Expense of the Board of Superintendence.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £10,845, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the support of certain Hospitals in Dublin, and for the Expense of the Board of Superintendence.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he wished to ask, whether this Vote was to be continued year after year to these hospitals? The Government ought to bring the Vote to a close.

LORD NAAS

said, a Committee had recommended this expenditure, and that recommendation was followed.

GENERAL DUNNE

said, that Ireland was charged for the Parks of London—and asked why these hospitals should not receive a grant from the State.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(10.) £5,323, Concordatum Fund, and other Charities and Allowances, Ireland.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.