HC Deb 27 February 1866 vol 181 cc1235-8

(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Sir George Grey.)

Order for Committee read.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (A Fund to be provided for defraying Expenses of this Act to be assessed by the Poor Law Commissioners).

MR. S. B. MILLER

said, he was anxious to introduce an Amendment giving effect to the terms of the Report made by the Commission presided over by the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas). That Report had been moved for on the 13th of February, but it was only that day that Members had been able to obtain copies. It was owing to the indefatigable endeavours of the noble Lord that Ireland was at present free from the cattle plague. Ireland did not ask for entire indemnity, but for contribution towards the expenses that would be necessary should the plague unfortunately reach that country. The suggestion contained in the Report was that the expenses of carrying those orders into execution, save the sums to be paid as compensation for the compulsory slaughter of animals, should be defrayed out of monies voted by Parliament.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, across the table, that it was not competent to the hon. Member at such a stage of the Bill to introduce so important a Motion.

MR. S. B. MILLER

said, that owing to the non-production of the Report, no earlier opportunity had been open to him. The Report showed on what abundant grounds the Motion was based. He asked in common justice for a full indemnity in the manner suggested by that Report for such expenses as might be rendered necessary by the creation of a staff of veterinary surgeons, inspectors, and other officers whose appointment had been rendered expedient by the fact that the plague had been allowed to reach in this country the height which it had at present attained. He moved, as an Amendment, the insertion of words providing that the amount of compensation paid under these circumstances should be defrayed by means of money voted by Parliament.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he was in hopes the few words he had spoken across the table would have relieved the Committee from the necessity of discussing the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman had not taken his seat in the House in the present Parliament for the first time, and therefore ought to be aware that the course which he was pursuing was almost without parallel. The proposal by private Members of public charges was well-known to be opposed to all the rules laid down by the House for its own guidance, although within the last few years words had been inserted by means of which those rules had been rendered ineffective. The point, however, to which he wished to call special attention, was that of founding on a document not in the hands of Members—

MR. S. B. MILLER

Yes, it is. It was presented this morning.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

It is not a Parliamentary paper.

MR. S. B. MILLER

Yes, it is.

LORD NAAS

I moved for it a few days since.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

Well, be that as it might, he did not think the hon. Member—who had given no notice of his Amendment—were he to ransack the Votes of the House from one end to the other, would find an example of such a proceeding as that to which he had just had recourse. He proposed, in a House of not more than forty Members, and upon the discussion of the clauses of a Bill in reference to which not a single notice of Amendment had been given, to lay down a totally different principle on the question of compensation from that which had received the sanction of Parliament in the case of England. For his own part he had not had an opportunity of considering that proposal at all, and he must not be regarded as giving to it any encouragement under the circumstances. He would, however, put it to the hon. Gentleman, as a matter of propriety, whether he would press his Amendment?

MR. S. B. MILLER

said, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be aware that the Bill had been read a second time only that very morning at two o'clock; that the Report on which he relied had been placed in his hands only that very day, that he there- fore could not have given notice of the Amendment, and that that was therefore the only manner in which he could raise the question.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that the hon. Gentleman might have adopted the very obvious course of giving private notice on the subject to his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland, who might then have postponed the Committee on the Bill.

MR. S. B. MILLER

said, he scarcely felt himself authorized in taking any step in the matter without communicating with his noble Friend the Member for Cocker-mouth (Lord Naas), whom he had only seen a short time before, and to whose exertions he repeated it was, under Providence, due that Ireland was free from the cattle plague at the present moment.

MR. BAGWELL

said, that the Bill had been brought forward at the request of the Irish Members generally, and it was scarcely reasonable when the House went into Committee upon it that such a proposition as that of the hon. Gentleman should be made. It was advisable, in his opinion, that the people of Ireland should themselves pay what the Bill proposed, and that the Government should take the responsibility in the event of an outbreak of the disease. The action of the Government in the matter under consideration was, in his opinion, an unmixed good, and he did not think it becoming in representatives of Irish constituencies to appear at the eleventh hour in opposition to the Bill.

LORD NAAS

said, he considered the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been a little too hard, under the circumstances, on his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. S. B. Miller). Although the latter might have made an unusual Motion, it was by no means unparliamentary. He should be sorry to delay the progress of the Bill, even if they obtained the object his hon. and learned Friend had in view. He hoped, as the opinion of the Committee was against him, that he would consent to withdraw his Amendment. The proposition, it was but right he should say, had been well considered in Ireland, and he did not see that his hon. and learned Friend was to blame in bringing the subject before the Committee. It was thought in Ireland that the extra duties which the constabulary and others (who were paid out of the Consolidated Fund) would have to perform under this Bill might be paid by the country.

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU

said, he would recommend the hon. and learned Gentleman not to divide the Committee, as in the then state of the House it might become a dropped Order.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to.

LORD NAAS

said, he would suggest that a larger sum than 2d. in the pound should be levied upon the occurrence of the event contemplated by the clause, and suggested that 1d. should be substituted for 2d.

Amendment agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.