HC Deb 06 April 1865 vol 178 cc849-52

SUPPLY considered in Committee.


(In the Committee.)

(1.) Original Question [April 3] again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £1,748,000, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge of the following Civil Services to the 31st day of March 1866: viz.

Class I.
Public Buildings, Ireland £33,000
New Record Buildings, Dublin 3,000
Class II.
Two Houses of Parliament, Offices 18,000
Treasury 14,000
Home Office 7,000
Foreign Office 18,000
Colonial Office 8,000
Privy Council Office 7,000
Board of Trade, &c. 18,000
Privy Seal Office 1,000
Civil Service Commission 3,000
Paymaster General's Office 6,000
Exchequer (London) 2,000
Office of Works and Public Buildings 8,000
Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues 8,000
Public Record Office 6,000
Poor Law Commissions 20,000
Mint, including Coinage 14,000
Inspectors of Factories, Fisheries, &. 10,000
Exchequer and other Offices in Scotland 2,000
Household of Lord Lieutenant, Ireland 2,000
Chief Secretary, Ireland, Offices 5,000
Inspection, &c. of Lunatic Asylums, Ireland 1,000
Office of Public Works, Ireland 6,000
Audit Office 9,000
Copyhold, Tithe, and Inclosure Commission 5,000
Inclosure and Drainage Acts; Imprest Expenses 4,000
General Register Offices, England, Ireland, and Scotland 17,000
National Debt Office 4,000
Public Works Loan Commission and West India Relief Commission 1,000
Lunacy Commissions 2,000
Registrars of Friendly Societies 1,000
Charity Commission 5,000
Local Government Act Office, and Inspection of Burial Grounds 2,000
Landed Estates Record Offices 1,000
Quarantine Expenses 1,000
Secret Service 8,000
Printing and Stationery 100,000
Postage of Public Departments 35,000
Class III.
Law Charges, England 20,000
Criminal Prosecutions, &c. 70,000
Police, Counties and Boroughs, Great Britain 65,000
Crown Office, Queen's Bench 1,000
Admiralty Court Registry 3,000
Late Insolvent Debtors' Court 1,000
Probate Court 21,000
County Courts 40,000
Land Registry Office £2,000
Police Courts, Metropolis 5,000
Metropolitan Police 40,000
Lord Advocate and Solicitor General, Salaries 1,000
Court of Session 5,000
Court of Justiciary 3,000
Exchequer, Scotland, Legal Branch 1,000
Sheriffs and Procurators Fiscal not paid by Salaries, and Expenses of Prosecutions in Sheriff Courts 4,000
Procurators Fiscal, Salaries 3,000
Sheriff Clerks 4,000
Register House, Edinburgh, Salaries and Expenses of Sundry Departments 4,000
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions, Ireland 20,000
Court of Chancery, Ireland 2,000
Courts of Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, Ireland 4,000
Process Services 3,000
Manor Courts Compensations 1,000
Registry of Judgments 1,000
Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency, Ireland 2,000
Court of Probate, Ireland 3,000
Landed Estates Court 3,000
Dublin Metropolitan Police and Police Justices 10,000
Constabulary of Ireland 200,000
Four Courts Marshalsea Prison 1,000
Inspection and General Superintendence of Prisons 5,000
Prisons and Convict Establishments at Home 80,000
Maintenance of Prisoners in County Gaols, &c., and Removal of Convicts 90,000
Transportation of Convicts 10,000
Class IV.
Public Education, Great Britain 175,000
Science and Art Department 45,000
Public Education, Ireland 90,000
University of London 2,000
Universities, &c. in Scotland 5,000
Queen's Colleges, Ireland 2,000
Belfast Theological Professors, &c. 1,000
British Museum 35,000
National Gallery 10,000
Scientific Works and Experiments 3,000
Class V.
Clergy, North America 1,000
Justices, West Indies 1,000
Western Coast of Africa 5,000
St. Helena 2,000
Falkland Islands 2,000
Labuan 2,000
Captured Negroes, Bounties on Slaves, 12,000
Commissions for Suppression of Slave Trade 3,000
Consuls Abroad 75,000
Ministers at Foreign Courts, Extraordinary Expenses 4,000
Special Missions, Outfits, &c. 6,000
Class VI.
Superannuation and Retired Allowances 60,000
Polish Refugees and Distressed Spaniards 1,000
Relief of Distressed British Seamen 9,000
Miscellaneous Charges, formerly on Civil List £1,000
Westmoreland Lock Hospital 1,000
House of Industry Hospitals 2,000
Cork Street Fever Hospital 1,000
Dr. Stevens's Hospital 1,000
Concordatum Fund, and other Charities and Allowances, Ireland 1,000
Non-conforming and other Ministers, Ireland 15,000
Class VII.
Temporary Commissions 3,000
Patent Law Expenses 6,000
Fishery Board, Scotland 4,000
Local Dues on Shipping under Treaties of Reciprocity 16,000
Inspectors of Corn Returns 1,000
Miscellaneous Expenses from Civil Contingencies 2,000
Total £1,748,000

said, that when he opposed the Vote late the other night he then felt, as he felt still, that, however irregular the proposal of the Government might be, it was impossible to resist it without inconvenience to the public service. He had no wish to carry his opposition any further; but he earnestly appealed to right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench to take some steps to avoid placing the House in what it must feel to be the humiliating position of professing to regulate an expenditure which it was not allowed to discuss in detail. If the effect of the Report of the Committee, as stated by the First Lord of the Treasury the other night, was that Votes on account must take place of that enormous amount, because the balances left upon the Votes of the previous year had to be paid back into the Exchequer, then there would be no other means of restoring regularity to the financial business of the House than by fixing the financial year to begin on the 1st of July instead of on the 1st of April. If the present system continued, they would have large Votes on account for all the item3 of charge, without giving the House an opportunity of determining whether the expenditure was politic or not.


said, the noble Lord was mistaken in supposing that a Vote on account precluded the most detailed discussion by the House of each head of charge to which the Vote applied. A Vote on account being only a portion of the total sum to be voted, enough remained under each head to enable the House to discuss in the greatest detail the separate items under those heads, and to atop, if it thought fit, any further expenditure upon them. Whenever the House, on going into the Estimates in detail, determined that any given Vote should cease, it would cease of course, and no further expenditure would be incurred after the date to which the Vote on account would carry the particular service concerned. The practice of voting on account was inevitable, owing to the balances being paid back into the Exchequer.


said, he did not understand his noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil) to wish now to stop the Vote on account, but to urge that in future years, when Votes on account were likely to be taken before Easter—a practice which, though resulting from the change that had taken place in regard to the balances, had yet put the House in a somewhat new position—the Government should lay on the table the particulars relating to those Votes.


thought it would often be extremely inconvenient to lay the Estimates so early on the table. The present proceedings originated in a reform resulting from an inquiry made by the Public Moneys Committee, and when the practice was adopted it was clearly understood that the Vote on account would not preclude discussion when the remainder of the sum was asked for.

Question put, and agreed to.