SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 13 March 1862)

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, he wished to call attention to the enormous outlay under that head. There was also a sum of £550,000 for hospitals. He would not grudge any amount that might be necessary for that purpose, but he could not but think the sum a large one.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, the Vote had already been discussed; and the only thing that had been postponed was the Vote for Sandhurst. As to the item for 1457 barracks he could only say that the accommodation asked for had been thought necessary. A great diminution in the mortality of our troops had been effected in the course of the last few years, and that was, doubtless, owing to the improvement which had taken place in our barracks.

SIR FREDERIC SMITH
said, he wished to know what was the meaning of the item of £2,000 for erecting a trial but at Hong Kong?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, the item to which the hon. and gallant General referred was for the purpose of making an experiment in the construction of a specie of barrack at Hong Kong which should he simple and cheap. Money with that view had been voted last year, but had not been expended. The item was therefore merely a re-Vote.

§ MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH
said, he had to complain that the nature of the course of instruction to be pursued at Sandhurst had not been submitted to the notice of the House, although it had last year been stated by the hon. Gentleman then Under Secretary for War that it was awaiting the signature of the Sovereign. He also wished to know how admission to Sandhurst was to be obtained, because if it were by nomination, the patronage of the Horse Guards, so far from being diminished, would be considerably increased by the proposal of the Secretary for War. Another point on which he should like to have some information was whether the period of the residence of cadets at Sandhurst was to be limited to one year?

§ COLONEL W. STUART
said, he wished to know if the new Indian regiments were to remain permanently non-purchase corps? He asked that question because the military train, which had been started on that footing only three years ago, had already, to some extent, become a purchase corps He begged also to ask what would be the expense of the education at Sandhurst to the sons of civilians?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he had not held out as an inducement to the Committee to assent to the Vote under discussion the circumstance that new regulations as to non-purchase had been introduced. He had simply stated it to be the fact that certain alterations in that respect had taken place; he might add that the arrangements which had been made in concert with the Indian Government in reference to the subject were intended to 1458 be permanent. Twelve regiments, nine of infantry and three of cavalry, had been converted from the old local force into Queen's troops, the commissions being non-purchase commissions, and that was the state of things to which the present mode of admission into the army was sought to be adapted. With respect to the mode of admission into Sandhurst, he might state that the age at which cadets were formerly admitted was thirteen, those who passed a certain examination obtaining a commission without purchase at sixteen. All nominations to the college, moreover, were made by the Commander-in-Chief, and the number of cadets was at least 405. [An hon. MEMBER: 412.] Under the proposed system the nominations would also be made by the Commander-in-Chief, and the question was, under what conditions they were to take place? A cadet would, in the first instance, be required to pass a qualifying examination on his entering Sandhurst if he had not gone through certain degrees at the Universities, and at the end of a year would stand a competitive examination, in which if he succeeded he would obtain his commission without purchase, merely paying £100 for his year's residence. He might in passing observe that the ad captandum argument used by the hon. and learned Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Selwyn) to the effect that the proposed scheme would operate as a great hardship in the ease of poor candidates for the army, while it would he favourable to rich, had no good foundation, inasmuch as the regulation price of a commission was £450, while under the new system of non-purchase the poor man who was nominated to Sandhurst would have to pay only £100, the cost of his residence there. If at the end of a year he did not succeed in passing the competitive examination which he would have to undergo, he would be allowed six months more to take another chance, when, if he failed, it would he still open to him to procure a commission by purchase, although he would lose the benefit of his residence at Sandhurst. The Committee, in considering the subject, must not, however, overlook the fact that although they were asked to vote a considerable sum for the maintenance of cadets at Sandhurst, they received a payment in return, as would be seen by a reference to page 189 of the Estimates, to the extent of £11,218, which sum was placed to the credit of the Exchequer in 1861, under the head of "Con- 1459 tributions of Gentlemen Cadets at the Royal Military College." The salaries of the Staff formed really the sole outlay voted by the House, because the expenses of the cadet's Were in fact defrayed by themselves and Were paid into the Exchequer. He trusted that under these circumstances the Committee would agree to the Vote.

§ MR. WHITESIDE
said, he did not think the right hon. Gentleman had given altogether a satisfactory explanation. It was necessary of course that men should qualify for the position of officers, and the more thoroughly that was done the better it would be for the service; but he could not understand why those who got their commissions without purchase should be subjected to a compulsory system of education, while those who bought their commissions could obtain their education where they chose. If an exclusive and compulsory system was desirable, why should it not be extended to the one class as well as the other? He fully agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that special military training was essential; but it might be procured elsewhere than at Sandhurst. Some of the best officers in the army came from Eton. The Vice Chancellor of the University he had the honour to represent very justly said that the Government system must have a tendency "to lower the intellectual culture of the army generally, by depriving it of the higher education which the Universities supply, and, at the same time, to engender that narrowness of mind which is the ordinary result of all exclusive professional training." On free-trade principles a man should be allowed to get his education in any Way he chose, and he could not understand why a liberal education should not be an excellent preliminary to the goosestep and parade drill.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
reminded the right hon. Gentleman that the education at Sandhurst was purely military, and that, in order to obtain admission there, a young man must undergo a preliminary examination to prove that he possessed a sound general education. Therefore so far from superseding, the arrangement rather favoured University education, because a man who had gone through such a course would be more likely than another to get admission to Sandhurst.

§ MR. WHITESIDE
remarked, that there were classes for engineering and other branches of military science at the Universities.

§ SIR HARRY VERNEY
said, he approved the present system. It was a complete mistake to suppose that those who got commissions without purchase were treated with less respect than those who paid for them. He was sorry to hear that the time to be spent at Sandhurst was to be limited to one year. He did not believe that any officer, not even his noble and gallant Friend opposite (Lord Hotham), could qualify himself for the command of a company in so short a period. It was very desirable that a certain number of officers should be trained in a military college, so as to be fit to perform their duties as soon as they joined their regiments.

§ MR. LEFROY
observed, that the Universities did not seek to engross the whole training of military officers, but only to supply them with the elements of a sound liberal education. He believed, however, that the special education for military purposes which officers would receive at Sandhurst would be a great advantage to them, and therefore he would support the grant.

§ SIR FREDERIC SMITH
said, he wished to observe, in reply to a statement of the hon. Baronet the Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney), that during the whole Peninsular war officers of the Artillery and Engineers entered upon their duties after only One year's training at Woolwich, and he believed that period Would be found sufficient for officers at Sandhurst. He did not believe that henceforward officers who might pass through Sandhurst would be looked down upon in the army merely because they had not purchased their commissions.

§ MR. NEWDEGATE
said, he wished to know how far the system of non-purchase of commissions was intended to be omitted or to be extended in the army of India, as well as in the army of this country?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that when the question of the amalgamation of the Imperial and of the Indian armies was before Parliament, the regulations with respect to the non-purchase system in India had been frequently made the subject of discussion. His belief was that there were no regulations in force with regard to the sale of commissions in that country.

§ COLONEL W. STUART
said, he wished to know whether an exchange would be allowed from a non-purchase into a purchase regiment?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that an 1461 officer might exchange from a purchase into a non-purchase regiment, but he did not see how such a thing would deprive a regiment of its character of being a non-purchase regiment.

§ MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH
said, he would beg leave to ask whether any further Votes would be wanted to complete Sandhurst, so as to enable it to accommodate 336 cadets? He also inquired why the plans and regulations relative to military education which were promised last Session had not been laid on the table?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he had every reason to believe that no further Vote would be required for building purposes, though he would not undertake to say that an additional sum would not be wanted to complete the internal accommodation of Sandhurst. The plan of military education announced last year had not been produced, because it had been abandoned and a new scheme substituted in its place.

§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNE
asked the right hon. Gentleman to explain which was the old scheme and which was the new?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
stated, that according to the plan of last year, every officer entering the army was to pass through Sandhurst. The Government had since decided not to act upon that plan, but to adopt the more limited one which he had described that night, and by which only those officers who had not purchased their commissions were to pass through the Military College. He had no objection to lay the new scheme before the House.

§ MR. W. EWART
said, he had observed with pleasure that sums of £4,000 and £3,000 were asked to establish soldiers' reading-rooms and gymnasia. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would further extend the system of reading-rooms for soldiers. He also hoped that in addition to the employment and instruction of soldiers and their children in trades, he would cause inquiry to be made into the system and results of employing French soldiers in the cultivation of vegetable gardens, or other cultivation of the land.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that the sums proposed for gymnasia and reading-rooms for soldiers were certainly not of any considerable amount, but they were as large as the Government then felt justified in asking the House to grant. It should 1462 be remembered that it was the multitude of the items in the Military Expenditure rather than the magnitude of any particular charge which raised the Army Estimates to so considerable a sum. The present Vote showed, at all events, the willingness of the War Department to make an advance in that direction. The item for teaching soldiers trades, was an experiment adopted at Aldershot on the recommendation of an officer who visited the camp at Chalons, and the system, if successful, might be introduced elsewhere. The same officer had reported in favour of gardens, but it had not been thought advisable to ask for any Vote at present.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
observed, that a sum of £30,000 was asked for sanitary purposes, without any specific explanation being given of the sort of works to which it was to be applied.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, the Vote consisted of a great variety of detail's which it would be impossible to explain within moderate limits.

§ COLONEL W. STUART
said, he wished to know under whose control the Vote would be expended?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said the expenditure of the Vote would be entirely under the control of the War Office. It was intended for the detailed improvement of barracks, and it was impossible to give a more specific description of its destination; it would be as easy to specify contingencies. There were a number of small improvements required for the health of soldiers in military barracks in this country, and this Vote was proposed with that view. If the sum taken proved too large for the purpose, it would not be expended,

§ SIR HARRY VERNEY
observed, that nothing was more economical than taking means to preserve the health of the soldier. The improvements which had recently been effected tended very much to reduce the death-rate.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, he could not understand what the sum of £30,000 was required for. Nothing could be more important than to preserve the health of the soldier; but it was not satisfactory merely to be told that so large a sum was to be applied in a general way to sanitary purposes without details.

§ SIR FREDERIC SMITH
said, there was no point which gave the Secretary of State for War more trouble than the sanitary improvement of the army. He un- 1463 derstood, however, that the Vote was necessary in order to carry into effect the sanitary improvements in various barracks which had been reported on by a Commission presided over by Dr. Sutherland; drawings having been furnished of the improvements in every instance. It was his belief that the sum of £30,000 would go a long way in carrying out the improvements required.

COLONEL NORTH
said, he knew that the whole of the medical officers of our army felt justly affronted at seeing a civilian placed at the head of the sanitary commission. The military medical men were a most distinguished body, and he thought that their feeling on the subject was quite natural. He wished to know whether Dr. Sutherland's salary was included in the £30,000.

§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNE
said, that the hon. Member opposite spoke of drawings. Now, the drawing to which he objected was that drawing of £30,000, The Vote, he thought, did not stand on satisfactory grounds. Let the right hon. Gentleman state what it was for. Besides that item there were distinct charges made for barrack improvements. "Sanitary purposes," like the word "contingencies," which appeared lower down, might mean anything. He had no wish to give a factious Vote, but it appeared to him to be a better course to postpone this Vote until they had more satisfactory details respecting it.

MR. T. G. BARING
said, that this sanitary Vote was one in which the late Lord Herbert took especial interest. Its origin was a Resolution of the House of Commons proposed by the present Lord Fortescue, and agreed to without any opposition. It had been found that soldiers in the prime of life were dying in consequence of the defective ventilation of barracks; and if not as a matter affecting the humanity, the honour, and the credit of the country, yet even from motives of economy, it was desirable that there should be perfect ventilation and perfect drainage in those buildings. Nothing was more expensive than a well-trained soldier. The late Lord Herbert himself visited many barracks, and noticed their defects, in a sanitary point of view, and he joined in many of the detailed reports which the Sanitary Commissioners presented from time to time regarding the health of the troops. Dr. Sutherland, one of the Commissioners was a very high authority upon 1464 such subjects, and reported upon the sanitary condition of the army in the Crimea. It was for the purpose of carrying out the recommendations in what were termed the "interim" Reports of the Commission that £50,000 had been voted for the last two or three years; but in consequence of various improvements having been effected, the Vote had been reduced to £30,000. Nothing was more capable of proof than that improvements in the ventilation and sanitary arrangements, of the cavalry barracks especially, had diminished the loss of life. If £50,000 had been wanted, he was sure the Committee would have cheerfully voted it, for he was certain, that if there was one single Vote which the House and the country would not wish to see diminished, it was this particular Vote for improving the sanitary condition of the army.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, he was glad he had put the question, because it had elicited a satisfactory answer.

§ MR. SALT
said, he desired to ask the object of a Vote of £ 3,000 for Hospitals?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, it was for the wives and widows of soldiers.

§ MR. SALT
said, he had seen a letter in The Times of that day, headed "Starving Needlewomen." He wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman bad any idea of employing women in connection with army clothing; and whether the wives and daughters of soldiers could not be so employed? It was not a new suggestion. The subject had been mentioned in the life of Sir Charles Napier. In raising the condition of the wives of soldiers they would also be raising the condition of the soldiers themselves.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, it was impossible for the Government altogether to overlook mercantile principles. They must consider the value of an article in the market, and could not make contracts on a basis of mere charity. If once they considered the supply of the army as a means of improving the condition of distressed persons, he hardly knew where they would stop. But the War Office had, nevertheless, made some contracts at slightly increased prices with certain societies which employed needlewomen.

§ MR. MONSELL
asked, whether the examination at Sandhurst was to be a competitive examination for young men entering or for young men leaving the college?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he had 1465 already stated that there was to be an examination on entering, to show that the young men were qualified; but on leaving the examination would to be competitive, in which more would compete than would obtain commissions.

§ MR. MONSELL
said, according to the proposed system for Sandhurst, the patronage of the Commander-in-Chief instead of being diminished, would be increased. The professed object had been to prevent the Commander-in-Chief having an increased amount of patronage in consequence of the amalgamation of the Indian army and the army of this country. Every one who had studied the matter must be aware that the competitive system for the Artillery and Engineers had succeeded, and that there had been an enormous improvement in the young men who had entered those corps. If they wished to prevent the Commander-in-Chief having more patronage, why was that plan not adopted at Sandhurst? He regretted that there was no mode by which to obtain in Committee an expression of the opinion of the House upon the subject.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
said, he thought that his right hon. Friend must have very strange notions as to what patronage was. He apprehended that his right hon. Friend had been in office to very little purpose if he were so perfectly ignorant of the nature of patronage. His right hon. Friend asserted that the plan proposed gave more patronage to the Commander-in-Chief what was the patronage which the Commander-in-Chief had before and which he now abandoned? It was the power of giving positively to A, B, and C commissions without purchase. It was a patronage of some value, be cause that which was granted was a positive gain to the individual and a certain possession. What was the present system? The Commander-in-Chief abandoned the power of positive appointment, and there was substituted for it the power of nominating young men to Sandhurst with the chance of their getting commissions by their own exertions, and having in the interval to pay £100 for maintenance. It was quite clear that, as the number of candidates was greater than the number of commissions, the extended patronage amounted to this—the nomination of a certain number of young men, of whom 1466 a certain number would surely be disappointed, and the rest, who were not disappointed, would achieve the object of their ambition by their own exertions and at a certain expense during the period of their being at Sandhurst.

§ MR. MONSELL
said, there were a certain number of their constituents who were seeking for appointments, and who were just as much obliged to them for getting them nominations as places. The Commander in-Chief now had three nominations for competitive examinations, instead of one direct nomination to a commission.

LORD STANLEY
said, he would ask what number of young gentlemen entering Sandhurst would obtain commissions in proportion to the number of competitors?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, it was reckoned that there would be 296 candidates for about 116 commissions.

COLONEL NORTH
said, that every officer of Artillery he had spoken to had given a directly opposite account of the officers who entered the army under the present system to that given by the right hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell). Nothing could be more disgraceful than the recent occurrences at the Military College at Woolwich. There was neither the same esprit de corps nor the same military discipline as under the former system. He only hoped that under the present system such officers as Sir Harry Jones, Sir John Burgoyne, Colonel Maude, Colonel Gordon, and Colonel Chapman, would be produced.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, he would remind the Committee of the irregularity of the discussion, and suggest that they should pass to the next Vote at once.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
said, that if any disgrace attached to the recent outbreak at the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, it attached to the system under which that establishment was administered, and he could not but think that some of the officers as well as the young men were to blame.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he could not remain silent while such opprobrious language was used in reference to the Military Academy at Woolwich.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
said, he did not allude to the right hon. Gentleman.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he had had the opportunity of reading the Report presented as the result of the inquiry that had taken place into that outbreak, and he believed that the principal cause of the 1467 discontent among the young men was the introduction of a certain portion of the cadets from Addiscombe, and the difficulty of engrafting them upon the system at Woolwich. There was some dissatisfaction as to the terms upon which they were to enter for the examination. Unquestionably, there was mutinous behaviour on the part of many of the young men, and he could state most distinctly to the Committee that it was not owing to any conduct pursued by the governing body, or by the head of the establishment, which could justly be objected to. The main defect in the institution was, that the age of the young men had been increased, whereas the regulations had not been revised. The consequence was, that they had been governing an institution of young men upon a system that was rather suited to boys; and that he believed was the true explanation of the outbreak. He thought that the head of the establishment had behaved on, the whole with great propriety, and the Report acquitted him of all impropriety. But the regulations required careful revision, and when the new system was ready to be brought into operation, it was thought expedient that a new head should be placed over the institution, but without the slightest reflection upon his predecessor. That recommendation had been carried into effect, and he could not at all acquiesce in the very injurious language which his hon. Friend had used with respect to the administration of the establishment.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
said, he thought one of the clearest evidences that the system which prevailed at Woolwich was indefensible was the fact that the young men were nominally punished, and not expelled. He quite approved, however, of their not being expelled, because the system was much to blame.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he would remind the hon. Member that the ringleaders in the outbreak were rusticated. A punishment sufficiently severe to mark the reprobation of the Commander-in-Chief of such conduct was, he thought, inflicted. But although a due discretion was exercised in the assignment of that punishment, he could hardly conceive that what seemed to him to be a judicious lenity should be construed into a proof of the innocence of the persons concerned in what unquestionably was a grievous breach of discipline.

§ MR. SELWYN
said, he rose according to notice, to move the omission of the item of £12,700, the probable charge consequent on the augmentation of the establishment of the college at Sandhurst by increasing the number of students to 400. That item afforded him an opportunity of raising the question of principle, which he wished to raise unembarrassed by the difficulty experienced in the previous discussion on account of the money having been actually expended. The subject, however, had been so fully handled in the previous debates, that it was not necessary for him to do more than to clear away two or three misapprehensions which seemed to have arisen. He had never rested the case upon merely economical grounds, but had stated that the education of the officers of the army was so important, and their influence so wide-spread, that he should not grudge any expenditure necessary for securing the best education for them; but the Universities had made a proposal to the Government for effecting that object, and the question was whether that plan ought not to receive a fair trial before the Committee sanctioned, for the first time, this increased expenditure. It was hardly necessary to defend the Universities from the charge of interested motives in the offer they had made to the Government. Indeed, that offer was much more open to the observation of his right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon, who said it was questionable whether it would be advantageous to the Universities themselves. He had himself at first doubted whether it would be beneficial to the discipline of the Universities that young men should resort to them for military education; but the document to which he had before alluded, and which was signed by the Vice Chancellor and many other of the most eminent men at Cambridge, stated it as their opinion, formed after serious consideration, that the liberal offer which had been made to the Government might be carried into effect without injury to the discipline of the University—an opinion in which Oxford and Dublin had also subsequently concurred. His mis- 1469 givings on that score bad therefore been removed. If that liberal offer were rejected, the responsibility would rest with the Government, and the Universities would have done their duty. The Universities had means of giving military education which were not at their command heretofore. Dublin was a garrison town, where a knowledge of drill could be easily imparted. Equal facilities might not, perhaps, exist at Oxford or Cambridge; yet they had adjutants and drill instructors, who were appointed and paid by the Government. He had heard most favourable opinions expressed by distinguished officers as to the efficiency of the University Volunteer corps, and the Secretary for War would have an opportunity of testing these opinions at the approaching meeting of the Volunteers belonging to the Inns of Court and the two Universities. Let the right hon. Gentleman appoint any officer, however strict, to take the command upon that occasion; let the united corps be ordered, without previous notice, to perform any manœuvres of which any regiment of the line was capable, and he would he quite content to stake the fate of his Motion upon the report of the officer so appointed. Moreover, the efficiency and permanency of those corps must be materially increased by an infusion of military students through the adoption of the offer made by the Universities to the Government. And, having regard to the frequent dispersion of their members, there were no Volunteer corps which it was more important to maintain in a state of efficiency, as they afforded the means of spreading the movement throughout the kingdom. All that the Universities asked was to have a fair competition—that every parent should he allowed to choose where he would send his son to receive the education necessary to qualify him for a commission without purchase. If a boy by his own talent gained an exhibition at school, which might, to a great extent, defray the expense of his education at the University, why should he not be allowed, when he had been a year and a half or so at the University, to go in to the military examination and compete for a commission without purchase? He wished it to be distinctly understood that it was only to the increase of Sandhurst that there was any opposition. There was no enmity on the part of those who objected to the Vote to the existing establishment, large as it was; all that was wished was, that 1470 the Government should not incur any additional expense on Sandhurst until the alternative plan which he had suggested; had been tried. He would conclude by moving the omission from the Vote of the item of £12,700, the probable charge of the proposed increase at Sandhurst; but as he understood there was an impression that no further division should be taken that night on the question of Sandhurst, he would only make the Motion pro formâ, and reserve to himself the liberty of dividing on the report,
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Item of £12,700, for the augmentation of the Establishment of the Royal Military, College by increasing the number of Cadets, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, he was not aware of any impression of the sort to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred, and so far as the Government were concerned the hon. and learned Gentleman was at liberty to take the division whenever he thought it most expedient. He had already so fully stated the plan he proposed, and explained his reasons for it, that he could scarcely say anything further on the subject. If the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin were allowed to send students up to the military examinations who had not passed through Sandhurst, other places of education would claim the same privilege. The Universities of London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, St. Bee's, and other places, would put in a claim to be admitted ad eundem, and the advantage to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge would thus be very much watered down. Sandhurst was at present very nearly self-supporting, and if the number were increased to 300, the payments would amount to somewhere about £30,000, which would more than cover the Vote. The payments of the students were paid into the Exchequer; but if the House should strike out the Vote, the result would be that they would have to be received on behalf of the institution, and the proposal of the hon. Gentleman referred itself, therefore, into a question of how the accounts of the establishment should be kept.

§ MR. WALPOLE
said he thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had entirely misapprehended the whole argument of his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Selwyn). It was not the object of his hon. and learned Friend 1471 to obtain any peculiar advantage for the three Universities. All that he had contended was, that it was inexpedient to make it compulsory that all person's who wished to enter the army without purchase should pass through Sandhurst. That was his first point; and his next was, whether, having regard to the persons themselves who passed through Sandhurst, was it or was it not expedient to make it a preliminary condition that they should obtain their commissions by a competitive examination? That was the scheme propounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War, and it was a scheme to which he (Mr. Walpole) had the strongest possible objections, and the grounds of those objections were very simple. He admitted it was desirable that there should be a Military College; at Sandhurst at which the sons of officers and civilians could be educated for the military profession, and he even thought it would be judicious if the payment made on account of the sons of officers not of high rank were smaller than it was at present. No doubt it was necessary to have a certain standard of Military Education to serve as a sort of standard to which all other persons must come up; but why it should be required that every person who had proved himself fit for a commission at an examination, the terms of which were settled by the Military Authorities themselves, should go through Sandhurst, he could not understand. That was the real point to which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of War should address himself, rather than to the invidious distinctions which he appeared to think his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge desired to press on him. In the course of the debates on this subject many Gentlemen thoroughly conversant with the subject had expressed an opinion that Sandhurst ought to be self-supporting; and if that were so, it would be far better, before increasing the establishment, to wait a short time, and see whether it might not be made more self-supporting; No doubt the original recommendation of His Royal Highness the Commander in Chief was, that every officer, whether entering the army by purchase or not, should be subjected to a competitive examination; but the matter was entirely altered when they tried to draw the line between those who purchased their commissions and those who did not. He believed they would have to come round to the question whe- 1472 ther they were to require that system of competitive examination to be carried to an extreme, and to tell gentlemen who were perfectly qualified to enter the army, that merely because they did not pass so good an examination as some others, there-fore they should not get their commissions. If they, allowed gentlemen to enter the army after passing a good qualifying examination, which should fully test their merits, acquirements, and capacities, they would do far mere towards improving education in the army than by confining and cramping it within a very limited sphere. He felt his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War had made out a strong case for giving a Vote for the buildings, which Vote was agreed to last year; but with regard to the extension of the amount to be given to the support of Sandhurst, he thought the House and the Government ought to pause until the plans had been more maturely considered. He should be glad to induce the Government to withdraw that particular Vote for one year, when they would be better able to judge where amendment and alteration were needed. If the plan were sound and good, let it be adopted; but they should not too hastily increase the Estimates by an annual Vote; He might add that in the early part of the evening the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War had said that accommodation was to be provided; at Sandhurst for 336 young men; but he (Mr. Walpole) believed the Vote was asked on the supposition that there would be 400, and he should like' to hear some explanation on that point.

COLONEL NORTH
said, he should give his support to the Government on that occasion. He thought the objection to the Universities as places for the education of officers was the greater age at which they would enter the army. The smooth-faced boys who in former days entered the service from Eton and Harrow came to their regiments full of life and energy, and with a very moderate opinion of their own merits which was a great recommendation in an officer; and by the time those youths were eighteen they were not only drilled soldiers, but, which was of much more importance, they had disciplined minds. And had the boy-officers ever flinched from their duty? In the Crimean war what most astonished and delighted the soldiers was the example of cheerfulness set by these youthful officers when undergoing the same hardships as the troops, during 1473 the dreadful winter the army passed through. He could not understand why such a change was made in the age of the officers. As to the Universities, there were no means of acquiring the practical part of a military education at Oxford or Cambridge. Dublin had a better claim; there was a large garrison there, but no other University had the same facilities for an officer learning his duties practically, He had to complain of the uncertainty of obtaining commissions under the present system of competitive examination. Many eases of the greatest hardship had occurred from that uncertainty. At the last examination only twenty commissions were given to the cadets from Sandhurst, the consequence being that number twenty-one on the list remained a Queen's cadet. He should be glad to hear that henceforth all Queen's cadets would be ensured commissions, for formerly when a man passed his examination he was assured of receiving his commission.

§ MR FINLAY
observed, that he regarded the question as purely a financial one. After establishing the college at Sandhurst it seemed a hard thing not to vote the necessary money for its support.

§ SIR WILLIAM RUSSELL
said, that during the Indian mutiny the only complaint against many of the young officers was that they were too gallant, for their daring often led them to peril the lives of their men unnecessarily, and it would have been better if they had enjoyed a better introductory training.

LORD STANLEY
had nothing to say against Sandhurst, but he could not follow the process of reasoning by which it was proposed to confer a monopoly in military training on that establishment. It was not a mere question between Sandhurst and the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, but between Sandhurst and all the rest of the world. He could understand that no one should be admitted into the service who had not acquired a certain amount of professional qualification. That was very proper; but he did not understand what it concerned the Government, or any one else, where that qualification was obtained, so long as it was possessed. It might he said there were facilities for professional instruction at Sandhurst not to be found elsewhere. That might be, and he believed it was the fact; but that was the candidate's own affair. If a candidate could obtain instruction better at Sandhurst than at any other place, then Sand- 1474 hurst would have the advantage of attracting candidates; but if there were that natural advantage, it was not only invidious, but useless, to superadd to that advantage a practical monopoly. It was urged in favour of the plan adopted by the Government that it was founded on the principle of open competition. He would remark, that although it looked like competition, yet the resemblance was more in appearance than reality; because though of the number of those who entered Sandhurst only one out of every two obtained commissions, and therefore as among the students there was a competition, yet the first entrance into the college was by nomination. It would be a mockery to say that the competition was open to the world when the entrance to the college was restricted to those fortunate individuals who possessed influence sufficient to obtain a nomination in the first instance from the Commander-in-Chief. The common sense plan would be to throw open the competition to the whole world, to state what would be required of candidates, and to allow them to get the qualifications required wherever they could, and then to let them come to Sandhurst that they might be tried whether they really possessed those qualifications. Then, if it were thought necessary, the candidates might pass a certain time in a military college to acquire habits of discipline. Something of that kind had been introduced into the civil service of India. Instead of the present system he thought it would be better to throw open the competition for commissions to all the world.

§ MR. DEEDES
said, that if they were to follow the noble Lord's advice, they should vote at once for the entire suppression of Sandhurst College. Since the discussion in the earlier part of the evening the question had entered upon a new phase. The hon. and learned Member for Cambridge had begun by limiting his proposals to the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin; but now it was urged that it should be open to all schools to qualify young men for competition for commissions. For his own part, he thought the principle of competition had been carried too far, and that no practical good flowed from it. If it were intended that young men should pass two or three years at Sandhurst, there might be objections; but he could not see what hardship there was in requiring of a candidate for a commission, who had re- 1475 ceived his general education elsewhere, to undergo one year's professional education at that college in order to qualify him for the particular profession he wished to adopt. He had relatives who had studied at Sandhurst, and he had no reason but to be well satisfied with the progress they had made at that institution. He had a great love and veneration for the universities, and having passed a great portion of his life at Oxford, he should object to anything like a military system of education being introduced into universities.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, the proposed system had been tried with the view of admitting persons to the civil service of India; but it had failed, and it was therefore given up, having been found not only inconvenient but unjust. It might seem a paradox, but nevertheless he held that the education a man should receive should be every education but that of his profession. In that distinction existed the difference between the man of liberal mind and the man of narrow mind. Every mechanic was educated with special reference to the trade he was to follow—his education was narrowed to that particular pursuit. But the professional man received a good sound general education in all the branches of knowledge with which his mind was able to cope, and then devoted himself to the study of the profession of his choice. So it should be with those destined for the army. But, in point of fact, Sandhurst was not an institution solely for military education. Otherwise, for what purpose were professors of mathematics, French, German, classics, and general history found there. Now, what he and others asked was that, until they became officers, young men should be at liberty to obtain their education wherever they pleased, and should not be forced to enter what was called a military college to receive an education which they could obtain as well", or perhaps better, elsewhere. Again, injustice was done by the proposition of the Government to the various educational establishments throughout the kingdom, and also to the young men who would have to come to this country from Ireland and Scotland on the chance of passing, but with the certainty that two-thirds of the entire number would be rejected. Their families would thus be made miserable, and they would themselves be prejudiced by being specially educated for a profession which they could not attain.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
I think the arrangement at Sandhurst very much answers the description which my hon. Friend has just given. He says that young men ought to be allowed to get their general education where they like. So they are. My hon. Friend denies this, because he says you profess at Sandhurst to give something like a general education. Now, the young men are to remain at Sandhurst a year. Does any one think that in a year they can get that general education which persons ought to have who fill the rank of an officer? At Sandhurst they are examined to ascertain whether at other places—at Universities, or schools, or at home—they have received that general education which is considered necessary as a foundation for a military life; and surely when you consider that what they afterwards require is peculiarly military instruction, that can be best acquired at a military college. How, for instance, can a young man at Cambridge or Oxford be expected to get that knowledge of military discipline and training which will be necessary when he joins his regiment? Hon. Members seem to confound general with military training. They say that a different system answered with regard to civil and scientific appointments. No doubt it does, and for this reason, that the knowledge requisite for the men who fill these appointments may be acquired anywhere. But what you want here is a knowledge of the military duties which a young man has to perform when he receives his commission, and I cannot understand how these duties and this knowledge are to be so well acquired as in an establishment of a purely military character where he can be practised in the duties he will afterwards have to discharge.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
said, that one pervading fallacy throughout the discussion was that the young men who were to obtain commissions without purchase would be poor men, whereas poverty or eminent service was by no means the sole claim to these commissions. He feared, on the contrary, that the proposed system would have the effect of throwing the commissions into the hands of those who were possessed of broad acres. It was true that commissions would be given only to those who passed a competitive examination; but that examination was to be restricted to those who obtained nominations, by which means patronage would be greatly increased. He could only characterize the 1477 proposal as an attempt, under the name of competition, to maintain the system of nomination,

MR. HENLEY
said, that the statement of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had placed the question on a definite issue—"Will you take these young men after they have undergone one examination upon what is now pretty generally known as the system of 'cram and sham'? Or will you not adopt the surer test of having them under your own eye for a year, when you will know whether they have anything in them or not?" For himself, he had no particular faith in a system which brought men from north and from south, from east and from west, and then suddenly let off the information with which they were crammed, like the charge in a pop-gun. The science of cram had now arrived at such a pitch of excellence that uncommon little reliance was to be placed on the results of examination. It was like bringing a horse to the post. A horse was brought into such condition, and trained to such a nicety, that if he ran on the expected day, he was sure to be pretty well up at the finish; but if he was not brought to the scratch at the particular moment, he would, perhaps, be good for nothing. The hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) had propounded a singular proposition. "Let your officers," he said, "first get their commissions, and then teach them their business." But was that principle carried out in other professions? A man was not allowed to practise at the bar until he was supposed to have learned something of law; and so it was with the clergy. Would the hon. Member like to have a doctor learning his business by practising upon his own person? Surely an officer should have acquired a knowledge of his profession before you gave him a commission, and the best plan was to make him acquire that knowledge under your own eye. He did not think a system of open running was so likely to secure the best men as the present more qualified system, A few nights before, he had voted for the extension of the Sandhurst establishment, because he had been unable to see why it should not be extended, when the army had been so much increased; but he should object to a proposition to make every officer pass through the college, agreeing as he did with his right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon, that it was better to have gentlemen entering the army in different ways, in order 1478 that the results of different systems might be ascertained. He thought it would be a great disadvantage to have all our military officers going through one groove; but, as the Sandhurst system was only to be carried out to a limited extent, he should vote for it.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, he must object to the item of £71,000 for the "Survey of the United Kingdom and Topographical Department." A Committee had been sitting for the last three Sessions to consider questions connected with the survey. Their report would be issued very shortly, and the Government ought to wait till it was before the House, in order that the House might decide whether they were to have the 25-inch or the 1-inch scale. The question ought not to be re-opened year after year, but a definite decision ought to be come to on so important a subject. He begged to move the omission of the item.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that if the House were never to agree to a Vote for the Ordnance Survey until all inquiry into the subject was at end, he feared they would wait a long time; for as long as he could remember there had always been an investigation, or a Committee, or a Commission, or an inquiry of some kind on the subject of the Ordnance Survey. Certainly it was his opinion that a great deal of money had been wasted. If the large plan under the consideration of the Committee to which his hon. Friend had referred were adopted, and the Government proposed to carry it out, he should be obliged to submit a supplementary Estimate, for there was nothing which would cover it in the present Estimate.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, he could assure the right hon. Baronet that a supplementary Vote would not be required under the circumstances to which he had just alluded. He would ask, what was the use of appointing the Committee if the House had already decided the question? The House ought to have an opportunity of deciding whether it would sanction the expenditure of £1,500,000 on what might be right or what might be wrong, or whether it would complete the plan on which it had already expended £1,250,000. The supporters of the Government had a right to expect that in matters of that kind there should be economy, and that the House should not be called on year after year to vote large sums without any definite plan.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he could not help thinking that his hon. Friend (Sir Morton Peto) did not understand the effect of the Vote asked for the Ordnance Survey. A survey on a large scale was being carried out for a certain portion of the country, and that survey had been in operation for a considerable time; but it did not embrace the bulk of England. It embraced Scotland and the six northern counties of England. If he understood it, the question to be considered when the Committee reported was, whether that large 25-inch survey was to extend to the whole of England; but the Vote now asked for was not to extend that survey to the whole of England. He could assure his hon. Friend that that was a question which he was quite as anxious as any hon. Member to hear fully discussed in the House. The sum asked for was only intended to carry on the work at present in progress, and not an extension of it, involving any question of principle or any matter that was new to the House.

§ MR. WYLD
said, that whilst in previous years the item had been divided and apportioned to England, Scotland, and Ireland for some special purpose, that year one sum only was asked for the three countries; he could therefore understand the complaint that had been made that Scotland's portion had been diverted to some other part of the survey. Before the House entered upon the increased expenditure necessary for extending the large survey, they were bound to consider whether or not the sum proposed to be laid out could be laid out advantageously by a small annual Vote of £90,000 a year. A large portion of the Ordnance Survey was now so incorrect that there must be a re-survey, and a large portion of the expense to be incurred might go in aid of the large map contained in the Estimate. He might also add that the hon. Gentleman (Sir Morton Peto) had a precedent for the course which he proposed to take, for in 1859 the Committtee of Supply postponed the Survey Vote because the commission upon the subject had not made its Report.

§ MR. DODSON
said, the question was whether the 25-inch scale should he continued or not; and he was of opinion that the hon. Baronet the Member for Finsbury was right in stating that the Vote ought to be postponed until after the Select Committee had presented their Report.

§ MR. HASSARD
said, that the ques- 1480 tion was not between the 6-inch and the 25-inch scales, but between those two scales and the 1-inch scale. The field survey was exactly the same for the 6-inch and the 25-inch scale. The survey of Ireland had been oh the 6-inch scale, which was so minute that the 25-inch maps required by the Encumbered Estates Courts were made out from the 6-inch scale field-book. For his part he was so convinced of the value of the 6-inch scale, that he did not consider it desirable to postpone the Survey.

§ SIR HARRY VERNEY
said, he thought that if the Committee could not postpone the Vote, it must be passed or rejected altogether. He hoped the latter alternative would not be adopted. The Vote was merely for the salaries of the men engaged in the survey.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that the survey for the 6-inch and 26-inch scale was only in progress in England in six of the northern counties. The Estimate before the Committee did not assume that the 6-inch and 25-inch survey would be carried over the rest of England, nor would the adoption of this Vote prejudice the Report of the Select Committee when it came before the House. The Government, in asking for the Vote, expressed no opinion for or against the 1-inch scale, and they would be quite free to act upon the report of the Committee if the Vote were agreed to.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, he should divide the Committee against the Vote. The Report of the Select Committee would be ready in ten or twelve days.

§ SIR FRANCIS BARING
said, he hoped that the Government would drop the item, and bring in a supplementary Estimate for the sum after the Report of the Select Committee had been delivered. It appeared that the Select Committee were of opinion that the Vote before the Committee would affect the question upon which the Committee upstairs were about to report, and it was therefore due to them to postpone the Vote. If they were obliged to go to a division, he should vote for the omission of the item, leaving it to the Government to bring it up afterwards as a supplementary question.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, if the omission of the item would in any way facilitate discussion on the point, he should not be so unreasonable as to refuse to consent to the course proposed; but the Estimate on the table did not affect the ques- 1481 tion of the 25-inch scale surrey as regarded that part of England which had riot been surveyed on that scale. If the Committee should not recommend the extension of the survey on that scale, the Government would have nothing more to do; but if the Committee should recommend it, and if the Government agreed with them, then it would be only necessary to propose a supplementary Estimate, without bringing it on in connection with the present Estimate, which did not affect the question.