HC Deb 14 July 1862 vol 168 cc285-90
MR. HIBBERT

said, he wished to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, Whether in the present and prospective state of Distress in the Manufacturing Districts, he is prepared to bring in a Bill for the purpose of enabling Boards of Guardians to borrow money with the consent of the Poor Law Board, for the purposes of relief; such loans to be borrowed on the security of the rates, and to be repaid by instalments extending over a period of not more than seven years. He also wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplates any other means of relieving the distress which is gradually extending throughout the Manufacturing Districts.

MR. C. P. VILLIERS

said, he had asked his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham to postpone his question from Friday night till that evening, and he had to thank him for having complied with that request. He had made that request in order that he might in the mean while ascertain precisely whether any information had been received at the Poor Law Board from the unions in Lancashire, showing that the guardians were desirous of possessing the power with which his hon. Friend proposed to invest them, or whether any statement had reached the Board at variance with those which had previously been made, and which were to the effect that the menus and powers possessed by the authorities in those localities were fully adequate to meet any emergency that might arise. He had now to tell his hon. Friend, that no board of guardians had as yet, in any communications with the Poor Law Board, expressed their wish to have this power of making loans; and that looking to the amount of poor rate levied, and the proportion it bore to the value of the property, there was nothing to justify him in saying that the occasion for such a measure (unprecedented as it would be in this country) had, as yet, arisen. He was bound, however, to say, that having been in constant communication with the very intelligent gentleman who was specially commissioned by the Government about ten weeks ago to proceed to those districts for the purpose of reporting on the condition of the people, and keeping them accurately informed on that subject, he had observed in the letters that he had recently addressed to him a less hopeful tone as to any mitigation of the present distress, and something like mistrust of that continuous flow of private benevolence on which, together with the poor rate, he and others had relied for the support, at least till the end of the year, of those who had been unfortunately deprived of their employment. This somewhat altered view taken by the Commissioner had been determined partly by the lamentable prospect of the protraction of the civil war in America, which the latest reports justified; and partly by the great and unexpected rise in the price of cotton, which, though somewhat caused by general speculation, had been also much effected by the export from the country during the last four weeks of a large amount of the cotton which had been previously intended for consumption at home, and which had, of course, led to the further closing of mills and the increase of destitution among the operatives, and further, also, had it been affected by the visible approach to exhaustion of the deposits in the savings banks, and of the supplies from friendly and benefit societies, on which the working class had drawn largely to maintain their independence during the last six months. Those things certainly combined to give a gloomy aspect to affairs, especially with regard to the future. At the same time they were still in a position to say that the rates had not reached the point that they had done at other periods of distress, and that there were several places then in England where the rates were higher than in the most distressed township of Lancashire. Thus, whereas pauperism in some places amounted to 1 in 15, 1 in 16, or 1 in 17, it amounted only to 1 in 19 in Lancashire. It was important to be observed, however, that the smaller contributors to these rates, who in ordinary times derive a profitable custom from the expenditure of the working classes, and who then were almost without trade, had begun to feel the pressure of the rates most severely; and it was a matter of grave consideration how soon their position might be changed, and those who had been hitherto ratepayers might become the recipients of relief themselves. It was under these circumstances that he did not feel disposed at once to say that his hon. Friend's proposition was not one that ought to receive a most attentive consideration, or that the time was not come when either that measure, or some other still better suited to the exigency of the time, should receive the deliberate attention of Parliament. On the contrary, he did think the circumstances to which he had referred tended to show that those districts did require the most watchful consideration on the part of the Government, and possibly they might have during the sitting of Parliament to provide some special means to meet the peculiar distress, should the existing means be deemed inadequate to provide for the relief that might be required during the recess. But, under any circumstances, he begged his hon. Friend to believe that he (Mr. Villiers) was fully sensible of the responsibility which attached to the Government, and more especially, perhaps, to the department over which he had the honour to preside at that critical moment; and that he would not suffer Parliament to rise without apprising the House of any difficulties that he saw might arise during the recess from want of power of relieving the distress, should it extend itself further, and also of any provision which he thought it possible for the Legislature to make to meet the evil. He knew the solicitude that that House had felt on the subject during the Session, and by personal communication had he been made more particularly aware of the anxiety and sympathy felt by those who represented those distressed districts in that House; and he felt sure, therefore, that even at the last moment the House would not shrink from giving effect to any legislative measure that was shown to be needed for the occasion. The other point on which he had been anxious to be informed before replying to his hon. Friend was the actual state of the law, with the view to the exercise of extraordinary powers to meet an occasion so peculiar and exceptional as the present. He might now venture to say that, strictly speaking, the law as it existed at present provided for the consequences of any places being unable adequately to support their own poor. It was provided distinctly in one of the oldest Acts in the statute-book regulating the relief to the poor, that if any place or parish should be deficient in means, such place might claim from the magistrates an order of contribution in aid from any or from every parish of the hundred in which such parish was situated; and should it so happen that all the parishes in that hundred should be circumstanced alike, and unable to relieve each other, then that the magistrates might make an order upon any other parishes in the same county for relief in aid of the parish or parishes so distressed. When, therefore, the wealth and extent of the county of Lancaster was considered, its annual rateable value being actually far more than £8,000,000 a year, and when the great extent of some of the hundreds of that county was considered also, the annual value of one of them being £2,000,000 a year, the House would see that, as regards any particular township, as the law stood at present there could be little danger of means being wanting for the relief of the poor. Of course, the law must be faithfully applied by the magistrates, and it was necessary that the appeal for this purpose should be made to those who would act with judgment and independence. He had stated to the House what the law in this matter was, in order that, together with the assurance he gave that the most deliberate consideration should be given to the proposition of his hon. Friend, or any other having in view a similar purpose, all alarm might be allayed with respect to the power possessed of relieving any increase of distress during the recess.

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN

said, he wished to ask when the right hon. Gentleman expected to receive the final report of the Commissioner who had been sent down to inquire into the state of distress in the manufacturing districts?

MR. C. P. VILLIERS

said, he was not aware there would be any final report beyond that which the Commissioner would make from the last place which he happened to visit. He had already sent particular reports from those places which he had visited, and to those reports his hon. and gallant Friend might have access, or there would be no objection to lay them on the table of the House if it were thought advisable that they should be produced.

MR. COBDEN

I am anxious to ask my right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board a question in continuation of the subject just referred to. He has alluded to the alternative in case of need of applying the principle of a rate in aid to the relief of these distressed districts. I wish to ask my right hon. Friend if he has considered whether the law of Elizabeth giving power to the magistrates to grant a rate in aid is applicable to present circumstances? I am told, from what should be very high authority, that that law upon a late occasion in the neighbourhood of Coventry was found not to work, and that in fact there is no power for its compulsory administration. I should like, therefore, to ask my right hon. Friend whether this subject has engaged his attention, or at all events to state that it will do so. I should wish also to ask whether, there being two or three questions which must come before the House in reference to the state of things in the North of England, my right hon. Friend proposes to bring the subject generally before the House, in order that Parliament may have a full opportunity of discussing it before it breaks up for the recess.

MR. C. P. VILLIERS

I think my hon. Friend has been somewhat misinformed with respect to the operation of the Act of Elizabeth. The section of that Act which relates to the matter in question is quite clear, and has been put in force on different occasions; the instance that he names, indeed, is a case in point, and arose out of circumstances analogous to those of Lancashire—I refer to the intense distress which prevailed in Coventry and the neighbouring towns. The only question that in that instance was raised by the inhabitants of the parish ordered to contribute to the rate in aid was, whether the distress in the particular locality sought to be assisted—which was the parish of Bedworth, I believe, in which the rates reached 12s. in the pound—was sufficient to bring them within the provisions of the Act. That question has not been authoritatively decided, not owing to any doubt as to the state of the law on the point, but because of the abatement of distress in the parish itself, and an indisposition, in the absence of any absolute necessity for doing so, to go to the expense of retaining counsel on the matter. I too, as well as my hon. Friend, have consulted competent authorities on the subject, and they are of opinion that the justices have complete power of ordering any parish to contribute in aid of the distress in another, the only question being—and that is a point which is left to the discretion of the justices themselves—whether the amount of distress in the parish sought to be relieved is sufficient to warrant the order. I may add, in answer to the second question of my hon. Friend, that I am not quite able to say when the general question will be brought under the notice of the House, inasmuch as I can not as yet state in what form it is to be submitted to Parliament. The proper occasion to discuss the subject will, I think, be when legislation upon it is proposed, and that such legislation will be proposed is, in my opinion, more probable than not.