COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether troops had been sent to America in the vessels Adelaide and Victoria, which were 292 lately nearly lost; and to move an Address for copy of any Report made by the commandant of the troops on board, the Admiralty agents at Cork, and the captains of these vessels; and further, to ask if either or both of these captains had retired or been removed from their command, and the reasons for such removal; and also to move for any correspondence between Major-General Lord Frederick Paulet and the War Office as to the Adriatic troop-ship conveying the Grenadier Guards to America, or any correspondence on the same subject with any Government department. He would first deal with the case of the Victoria. That vessel sailed from Cork on the 4th of January, with twenty-two officers and 505 men of the 96th Regiment on board. Before she left the harbour, indeed from the moment the regiment went aboard, she was found so leaky, and it was considered necessary to hurry her off so rapidly, that neither bedding nor rations were served out to the men until they were under weigh and sea-sick. The accoutrements and arms were not even hung up and stowed away, and they were, as well as the officers' cabins, completely wet through. During the first five days at sea she made some progress, but it then began to blow, and the defects of the ship were speedily discovered. It blew very hard, and the vessel pitched and rolled so much that the men on board were exposed to the danger of loss of limb and life, and were saturated with water. Neither with the aid of steam nor sail was she able to make head against the storm; she scarcely made twenty-four knots in twenty-four hours, while she fell forty-eight knots to leeward, though burning forty tons of coal in that period. The horses which she carried, belonging to the officers, and which he was informed they were obliged to take at their own risk, were destroyed. The spars of the ship, moreover, were snapped asunder, her life-boats were carried away, the long-boat stove in, the bridge torn up. She rolled so that neither tea, coffee, nor soup could be served to the men. Her sails were torn to pieces; and in short, she was exposed to all those disasters which attended a vessel not in a state to make head against a storm. Now, the question he wished to ask was, were twenty-two officers and 505 men, after all that had taken place, to be called upon again to embark in the same ship? He should also like to know whether the Admiralty agent who had inspect- 293 ed her when she put back, had or had not pronounced her to be unfit to cross the Atlantic? He was the more particular in desiring to have an answer to that inquiry, because it was currently reported that the captain and officers had expressed it to be their opinion that she could never perform the voyage except in fine weather. He might also add that he had been told the conduct of the captain and officers was beyond all praise, while it was said that the crew, with the exception of about six men, were not so efficient as they ought to be for the purpose of navigating the vessel. That which, however, he complained of most of all was, that a ship which had proved herself so unworthy of being trusted should be again sent out to sea. He, under these circumstances, trusted the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty would furnish him with the Returns for which he asked, and would not refuse to produce them on the ground that they were of a confidential nature, so that the House might know whether the agent who had reported the ship to be fit for the transport of troops across the Atlantic had or had not been punished for making a false report. So far as the Adelaide was concerned, he understood that she was a sister ship to the Victoria; that she had been built for the Australian trade, and was never intended to contend against the storms of the North Atlantic. He was also led to believe that the price paid for the services of those ships for three months was very nearly equal to their value, while there prevailed an impression among ship-owners and naval men with whom he had had communications on the subject that they were totally unfit for the service on which they were engaged. As to the Adelaide, he need only say that, so far as he had ascertained, the disasters which had befallen her were nearly as great as those which the Victoria had encountered. The Government had assumed to themselves great credit for the promptitude with which they had despatched troops to Canada, but he did not think it was right they should obtain a greater amount of it than they were entitled to receive, and in the case of the Parana and the Adriatic, as well as of the vessels to which he had more especially called the attention of the House, complaints, he believed, had been made, owing to overcrowding and other causes; and it seemed that the Admiralty itself was not without some misgivings on the subject of the unfitness of these vessels to 294 encounter the storms of the North Atlantic Ocean, because he (Colonel Dunne) had heard that they were told to proceed to Madeira, thence to Bermuda, and thus to America, by which route they would be in less danger of storms which swept the Northern Ocean, but which would ensure to these regiments which had been so lately nearly lost, a residence on ship-board of at least six weeks' duration. Why could not the Government employ transports like the Himalaya, as he was informed she had performed the voyage to America in twelve days, and, it was said, had saved the country an enormous sum of money? He should like to know from the Government whether that was not so, and whether they were not in possession of Reports from Colonel Lord W. Paulet and other officers in which those complaints were embodied? He should not, however, enter further into the subject, but should content himself, while moving for the Returns, with the expression of a hope that the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty would be able to contradict the statements, especially that with reference to the re-embarkation of the troops when no pressure for their immediate despatch existed, to which he had called his attention.
§
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copy of any Report made by the Commandant of the Troops on board the vessels Adelaide and Victoria, the Admiralty Agents at Cork, and the Captains of those vessels; and also of any Correspondence between Major General Lord Frederick Paulett and the War Office as to the Adriatic troop-ship conveying the Grenadier Guards to America, or any Correspondence on the same subject with any Government Department,"—instead thereof.
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, he was willing to admit that if the rumours to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman alluded were in general circulation—a fact of which he was not aware—he had done perfectly right in bringing them under the notice of the House. He must, however, demur to the production of confidential reports of officers to the War Office and the Admiralty with regard to transports. Those two departments encouraged all their officers and agents, and also the military officers on board such vessels, to find fault with them whenever they had occasion to 295 do so, and he felt assured that if the reports which were in consequence sent in were made public the Government would not receive that full, frank, and free information which it was desirable they should possess. So far as the official report—that was to say, the report of the Admiralty officer as to the fitness of those vessels for the service imposed on them—was concerned, he would have no objection to lay it on the table in the cases both of the Adelaide and Victoria. That the troops on board those vessels had been subjected to very great inconvenience and discomfort he was not prepared to deny, but then it should be borne in mind that all the reports on the subject received by the Admiralty concurred in pronouncing the gale with which they had to contend as a perfect hurricane. Indeed—as the hon. and gallant Gentleman must be well aware—bad weather must in the month of January be expected to await vessels crossing the North Atlantic by the Northern passage, and that which the Victoria and Adelaide encountered was, he believed, more than usually severe. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, however, seemed to maintain that those ships were utterly unfit to cope with the storms of the Atlantic, but he must not forget that they had been employed in conveying troops to China, a circumstance which in itself showed that they might not unfairly be deemed capable of successfully contending with the weather which they would be likely to meet in going to the coast of America. The Adelaide, he might add, left Queenstown on the 4th of January, and put back on the 24th, not because she was leaky or deemed unseaworthy, but because she had been so unfortunate as to have the lid carried off one of her cylinders. When she came back to Devonport, she had been set thoroughly to rights in the dockyard; and from a report which, if the hon. and gallant Colonel would like to move for it, he should be happy to produce, it would be found that, having been tried in bad weather outside the Eddystone, she had been pronounced by the dockyard officers to be perfectly fit for sea. As to the Victoria, he had to state that she had left Queenstown on the 6th of January, and that she had put back. The cause, however, of her having put back was that she had attempted to force a passage against a tremendous gale, and had consumed so much coal that there was no prospect of her being able to make the voyage in any 296 reasonable time. It was quite true that many of the officers referred to were very good sailors, and could give a very fair opinion as to the qualities of vessels, but his gallant Friend would admit that the Admiralty authorities were the proper parties to judge as to the fitness of ships. He had carefully read the reports both of Admiral Smart at Queenstown and of Sir Thomas Pasley at Devonport, and there could be no doubt that both vessels inspected by them were perfectly fit to undertake the voyage; and it was only because there was now not so much occasion for haste that they were directed to take what is called the Southern passage, having permission to touch at Bermuda only in the event of their coal falling short. His hon. and gallant Friend had referred to a report of Lord Frederick Paulett with regard to the Adriatic. That gallant officer had stated, undoubtedly, that there was not full accommodation for the troops in the Adriatic, but that was to be attributed in great measure to the haste with which the internal arrangements had been completed, He could assure his gallant Friend that the complaints of Lord Frederick Paulett had reference to matters of detail of no very great importance; and the upshot of all was, that he could confidently state that the gallant soldiers now on board the Adelaide and Victoria were embarked in thoroughly good vessels, and incurred no further risk than any men crossing the Atlantic at this time of year. He should be happy to give the returns sought, relative to the fitness of these vessels. It was true that both the captains had left the vessels, but of course the Admiralty had nothing to do with their removal. That depended upon the owners, and they had a report from the owners stating that one of the captains had left his vessel from private circumstances, which had no reference to the vessel itself, and the other left from ill-health, having been suffering for some time, and being therefore quite unfit to go on that voyage. He was not aware that any censure had been passed on the agent.
§ MR. G. W. BENTINCKsaid, there was one part of the noble Lord's answer which he did not quite understand—namely, that in which a distinction was attempted to be drawn between the propriety of laying on the table reports of the performances of these vessels, and what were called confidential Reports. It appeared to him (Mr. Bentinck) that when, as in the pre- 297 sent case, the object was to ascertain the fitness of transports, all Reports ought to be given to the House which it was in the power of the Government to furnish. It was perfectly true that there would always be storms in the Atlantic in the month of January, but the question was, whether it was not desirable, both on the score of economy and for the safety of the troops, that we should have a larger number of troop-ships in commission, which would always serve as a school for seamen, and which might be employed as transports, rather than incur the enormous cost of hiring transports. He would revert for a moment to another subject. His attention had been called by his hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) to what had fallen that evening from the noble Lord at the head of the Government respecting the distress at Coventry. The noble Lord, with his usual hilarity of spirits, had attributed that distress to a change of fashion on the part of the ladies with reference to the patterns of ribands. But the figures which he (Mr. Bentinck) held in his hand would tend to show that the noble Lord was mistaken on that subject, and that the distress in Coventry was solely attributable to the operation of the commercial Treaty with France. In 1860, before the treaty came into active operation, the number of pounds of ribands imported was 442,000; and in 1861, when the treaty was in full operation, the number of pounds imported was 746,000; in other words, there was an increased importation of ribands to the extent of 70 per cent. That was the real cause of the distress at Coventry, and it could only be ascribed to the operation of the commercial treaty. He would remind the noble Lord of another fact; not only was there no duty on the importation of French ribands, but there was a duty on the import into France of ribands from this country. That duty, to be sure, was only a small one, but France retained the power of increasing it at pleasure. Yet that was called free trade.
SIR GEORGE LEWISI wish to state that the part of the hon. and gallant Member's Motion which relates to the correspondence between Major-General Lord F. Paulett and the War Office as to the Adriatic is nugatory, inasmuch, as no such correspondence exists. It is the practice for commanding officers who go out in transports to address to the Admiralty any confidential letter they may 298 think expedient with respect to the accommodation of the troops, and the practice manifestly tends to the advantage of the troops; because there may be matters which the Admiralty has it in its power to correct, which are, nevertheless, not of sufficient importance to be made the subject of a public despatch. Now, if the House thinks it right to call for confidential letters of this kind, the obvious result will be that they will not be written. No doubt, they may call for this particular letter, but it will be the last that will ever be written. The practice will cease, for it only exists on the faith that Parliament will not call for the production of private documents of this kind, written in the expectation that they will be treated as confidential. I hope, therefore, the House will respect the practice which has grown up, for the convenience and advantage of the troops, and that my noble Friend will not think it his duty to concede that part of the Motion.
COLONEL DUNNEdiffered from the noble Lord and his colleague as to the propriety of withholding reports of complaints because they were deemed confidential, while he was sure no officer making them would shrink from their publication. On the contrary, he felt assured that more reports would be made by officers if they were made public, for in that case they might expect to obtain redress. If they did not wish publicity, why was he furnished with the information which he now brought before the House? At the same time, after the statements which had been made, and the refusal of the noble Lord and the Secretary at War to give the papers he moved for, and consent only to give the Reports of the Admiralty agents as to the state of the vessels when they last sailed, he would not press his motion, because he put no faith in the reports of men who must have deceived the Admiralty on the state of these ships when proceeding on their first voyage. If the noble Lord pledged his professional reputation and word that he was convinced that these vessels were in a fit state to carry out Her Majesty's regiments, and to risk the lives of so many brave men in them, he would himself prefer the word of his noble Friend to that of these Admiralty agents, and he thought the public would do so likewise.
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETassented to do so.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.