HC Deb 22 June 1860 vol 159 cc874-80
MR. BLAKE

said, he wished to call the attention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland to the fact that, since the appointment of High Sheriffs for Cities and Boroughs in Ireland became vested in Government in 1842, the Roman Catholics of the city of Waterford have been excluded from that office, and to ask whether he is prepared to take the necessary steps for remedying a grievance which has hitherto been remonstrated against without success? As this appointment rested with the Government, it was their duty to inform themselves of the most competent persons to discharge the office, and to see that they were appointed. The high sheriffs were chosen from a list furnished to the Judges by the outgoing sheriff, but he had reason to believe that the high sheriffs for the city of Waterford never did return the name of a Catholic for that office a native of the city, except in one instance; and it must appear to the House a monstrous injustice that in a town where Catholics numbered four-fifths to one-fifth of Protestants, Catholics should have been systematically excluded. The right hon. Gentleman might, perhaps, say that he knew of three cases in which Roman Catholics had been appointed to that office; but that did not take from the statement which he had made, that no Roman Catholic of the city of Waterford had been appointed, because those gentlemen did not belong to the city. He might refer to his own case. He had been mayor of Waterford three years in succession, he had been president of the Chamber of Commerce, and he had been twice returned a Member of Parliament, and yet he had never been selected for the office of high sheriff. And this was the case with regard to the Roman Catholic gentry generally. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland would direct the attention of the Judges of assize to this matter. He had spoken to the late Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. J. D. FitzGerald) on the subject, but there had been no change; and he now appealed to the right hon. Gentleman, who had always shown himself so ready to do justice in Irish matters. He would also direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the manner in which the law was openly evaded in Ireland with regard to the appointment of sub-sheriffs. The law provided that no person should hold the office two years in succession, under a penalty of £100. The law, however, was constantly evaded in this way. As soon as the sub-sheriff was appointed a second year in succession a nephew, or clerk, immediately went to the Government and gave information, and the fine of £100 was paid, but immediately handed back to the sub-sheriff. It was a singular fact that, since the reign of James II., no Roman Catholic but one, who belonged to the city, had filled the office of high sheriff of Waterford. Since 1842 twenty high sheriffs had been appointed in Waterford, of whom seventeen were Protestants and only three Roman Catholics, and these not gentlemen of the city. He, therefore, begged to suggest to the Chief Secretary that whenever lists were returned by the outgoing sheriff of persons to fill the office, that care should be taken to see whether the names of Catholic citizens of Waterford appeared, and, if not, to inquire whether there were any such eligible for the office.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

—In reference to the Motion of the hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel Dickson) I have no reason to complain either of the tone of his speech or the spirit in which it was made. It did at first alarm me when I saw the notice, as the object was not very clearly stated, but I thought the intention of the gallant Officer must be just what it has proved to be. In the first place, he says that he has seen it asserted that we have but 30,000 soldiers in England, and that that is the result of the large Estimate of 15 millions that have been moved in this House. Now I do not hesitate to say that never was there a calculation more absurdly unfair than that. I do not know that it is at all proper to make a rule of three sum of the number of men voted and the amount of money granted by this House, because obviously the two things have no close connection. You may have in one year a larger number of men than another, at the same time with smaller Estimates, because the Estimates depend upon the state of your stores, your equipments, and even your navy; but even assuming that mode of comparison to be a fair one, and supposing that we set against the private soldier the cost of the whole establishment, even including the non-effective branch, I find that in 1835–6, when the Army Estimates were lowest, the cost of the soldier was then £81, while now, notwithstanding the many improvements that have been made in barracks, in clothing, and various other ways, and with an increase of pay in all ranks, the cost is only increased to £94. Still, I do not think that practically that point is of any real importance. The gallant officer spoke of the Volunteers, and does not think that movement can go on.

COLONEL DICKSON

I said that they could not be expected to continue so atten- tive to their drill as they have been, for it would interfere with the ordinary business of life.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

Well. I concur with the gallant Officer. It is singular how the conduct of the Volunteers has disappointed the prophecies that were made about them. It was said that they would never attain any great proficiency, as they would never submit to the drudgery of drill, but I think they have proved their willingness to submit to drill, and to do everything in their power which is calculated to render them effective soldiers. They have fully shown that they are not mere holiday soldiers, but under great disadvantages they have applied themselves steadily to the duties which they have taken upon themselves. One of the disadvantages with which they have had to contend may seem trivial, but it was calculated greatly to influence the attendance at drill—I mean the weather. Now, the Volunteers have hardly got home with a dry skin the whole of the last spring, but still they have not been discouraged, but have mustered well at drill. I quite agree, however, with those who think that we ought not to take the Volunteers into too great account in estimating the force of the country. The first thing is to reckon the regular forces. The Militia when embodied, with the efficient colonels which they now have, become almost as good as the Line; but they ought, I think, to be in a disembodied state, acting as a reserve. The gallant Officer says, and I know it is a favourite theory of his, that the Militia ought to be kept disembodied, with the exception of a certain proportion; that they ought to be trained for three months together once every three years, and that that would be better than a month's training every year. But I doubt whether that mouth's training is, as he says, useless, especially as the gallant Officer also says, that in six weeks you may make a soldier fit for garrison duty. Of course, if you can get a man who has been drilled for three months, he will make a much better soldier than a man who has received only a month's training. But would the gallant Officer sooner have a man who had been drilled three months three years ago, or one who had been drilled a month a year ago?

COLONEL DICKSON

I suggested that they should be drilled for three or six months, and one-third at a time.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

But then comes the question,—are they disembodied Militia, and is it not likely that by such a mode of drill you will not take so much from the labour of the country as to excite dissatisfaction among employers? This is a point of no little importance. The object should be to interfere as little as possible with the labour market; but if you take men from their work for a long period you do interfere with the labour-market seriously, and are likely to draw down much opposition on the part of employers.

With regard to the number of troops, the gallant officer has stated them very accurately. At this moment the number of regular troops in this country is as near as possible 80,000 men. Of course, you must make deductions for sick and absent, though the absent at a time of emergency would be almost nil. The number I have given, too, includes all ranks. It is as well in these calculations to reckon the non-commissioned officers, but if we deduct the officers the total number will be reduced by 3,000 or 4,000. The House must remember that this is not a fixed number, but that, in the natural course of things, it is a growing number. Last year there were 64,500 regular troops in this country; this year we have got 80,000 making an increase of about 17,000 men. I am speaking now of purely British regiments, and am not including the depots of Indian regiments. The number, I repeat, has increased from 64,500 to 80,000, and we have seven battalions of infantry on the seas and now coming home—one from the Mauritius and six from India, with one regiment of cavalry. Next year, I hope, will see a further accession from India, and it must he borne in mind that at this moment we have diverted from their proper position no fewer than 10,000 Queen's troops, who are now in the China seas. Then, again, I mentioned at the commencement of the Session, when I moved the Estimates, that I looked upon this as an exceptional year, when it was necessary to make enormous efforts for the purpose of adding to our stores, providing a large supply of rifled muskets, and otherwise improving our matériel. We are thus spending our money rather upon matériel than upon men; but when once we have got this matériel our expenditure on this head will of course be diminished, and upon the same outlay we may, if we choose, maintain a larger force at home. I am much obliged to the gallant Officer for the manner in which he has discussed this sub- ject, pointing out, as he has done, the absurd exaggerations which have been spread abroad respecting it. The expenditure, I admit, has been large; but I have shown why it has been large. At this moment, with the number of troops now in England, we are short of barrack-room. If the men had allotted to them the space which is properly their due, we should be short of accommodation for 25,000 men. We are adding to this accommodation as cheaply as possible, and I hope next year that we shall be able to show a decided improvement, both in the number and the condition of the force at home.

MR. CARDWELL

, in reply to the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Blake), said, the facts had been very accurately stated in the main by the hon. Gentleman. What had happened was—the Judges of Assize uniformly prepared for the consideration of the Lord Lieutenant a list of three persons, and, although they were doubtless assisted by the sheriff and the under sheriff in the preparation of the list, most distinguished Judges, including some of the Roman Catholic Church, had stated that they could not be governed by any such representations; but that, having themselves knowledge of the position and standing of gentlemen in the neighbourhood, they would not think it right to exclude any one from the panel merely because he was not placed upon it by the sheriff. Thus there was security that the panel would be impartially constituted, and no man passed over because of his religious opinions. The Lord Lieutenant almost invariably selected the first name in this panel, and in the list of sheriffs appointed during the years to which the hon. Gentleman had referred, that course had been pursued in every case, except where the gentleman thus selected himself desired to be excused. The Judges therefore, had, in point of fact, selected year by year the gentleman who had served the office of sheriff for the city of Water-ford, and they would continue to make such a selection as they thought reasonable. It was true that the Lord Lieutenant was really invested with the power and the responsibility; but the system now pursued was a wholesome one, from which it would be unwise to depart. It was better that these appointments should be made by the Judges acquainted with the locality than by persons of political leanings, whose selection, if it did not lead to real abuses, would yet fail to command public confidence.

Motion agreed to; House at rising to adjourn till Monday next.