HC Deb 16 July 1860 vol 159 cc1953-63

Order for Committee (Ways and Means) read.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. NEWDEGATE

, pursuant to notice, rose to move— That the Rules against proceeding with opposed Notices and Orders alter a quarter before Six o'clock on Wednesdays, under the Standing Order of the 19th of July, 1854, be applied to all business standing for Evening Sittings, upon which debate shall arise after One o'clock in the morning during the remainder of the Session. The hon. Gentleman said the importance of the subject which he had ventured to bring before the House would furnish his excuse for interposing in the progress of the business which stood on the paper for that evening. The number of hours during which the House had sat each day of late, and during the last fortnight especially, in addition to the labour of attending Committees, rendered the matter of much interest to every Member and especially to the Speaker, for whose great exertions during these protracted sittings the House must feel grateful; it was a matter of congratulation that the right hon. Gentleman's health had not suffered in consequence. He felt much diffidence as an individual in bringing this subject before the House; but, perhaps, the fact of his having held for five years one of those nameless but important offices, the due discharge of the functions of which so materially affected the action of the House, had rendered it necessary for him to watch closely the proceedings of the House, might give him some claim upon their attention on the present occasion. Looking at the state of business before the House and to the duration of their sittings, especially during the last fortnight, he foresaw that the measures set down for consideration were likely to be hurried forward during the remainder of the Session in a manner to preclude the possibility of anything like a fair amount of deliberation being given to them. He held in his hand a Return of the number of hours the House had sat from Thursday, the 28th of June, to Thursday, the 12th of July. It appeared from this document that the labours of Members were thus engaged:—

Days. Adj. Length of Sitting.
Th., June 28 No morn. sitting 2¼ a.m. 10¼ hrs.
F. June 29 Morn. sitting 2 a.m. 12 hrs.
M. July 2 No morn. sitting 2¼ a.m. 10¼ hrs.
Tu. July 8 Morn. sitting 8¼ p.m. 6¼ hrs.
W. July 4 Morn. sitting 6 p.m. 6 hrs.
Th. July 5 No morn. sitting 2¼ a.m. 10¼ hrs.
F. July 6 Morn. sitting 3 a.m. 13 hrs.
M. July 9 No morn. sitting 2½ a.m. 10½ hrs.
Tu. July 10 Morn. sitting 1¾ a.m. 11¾ hrs.
W. July 11 Morn. sitting 6. p.m. 6 hrs.
Th. July 12 Morn. sitting 4 a.m. 14 hrs.
On Friday last he believed the House did not adjourn until 2½ a.m. having sat 13 hours. The Notice Paper for that day contained the longest list of Notices within the memory of the oldest Member—it contained no less than 52 Orders of the Day, It appeared to him therefore they were not likely to devote to even a quarter of the business before them anything like reasonable deliberation, nor to continue those protracted sittings with common justice to themselves or due regard to the character of the House. In making those observations he did not intend to cast any undue reflection on the Government, who were no doubt pressed at that period of the year to pass their measures as rapidly as possible and to make up for lost time. Nevertheless, if such a mass of Bills as that presented to them was persevered with, it would be impossible to give them due deliberation, he, therefore, thought that the character of that House as a deliberative assembly was much endangered by the continuance of a system under which such a presssure was imposed. The number of hours which they sat in that House did not represent the amount of labour hon. Members had to go through. They had to communicate with their constituencies, to carry on a wide correspondence, and to devote some time to the study of those subjects before Parliament in order to render them fully competent to discharge their functions properly. In the Motion which he should submit to the House he proposed no absolute limit when the adjournment should take place, as the establishment of a limit of that kind might encourage a practice of speaking against time. What he suggested was, that debates arising previous to one o'clock in the morning should not be interrupted, but that no new debate should be originated after that hour. Under the existing system many of their most experienced and assiduous Members, utterly exhausted by protracted sittings, were compelled to re- tire at twelve or one o'clock at night, and to leave the most important questions in which they took the greatest interest to be dealt with by a comparatively small number of Members, who, perhaps, represented only a one-sided and partial view of those questions. It should be further recollected, that owing to the fatigue of the Reporters and the limitation of space in the public journals, it was impossible for the public press to publish those past-midnight discussions in such a manner as to convey an accurate idea of the debates of the House. Under such circumstances, the ordinary channel, through which public opinion was elicited and reacted upon the House, was thus cut off, and the House was liable to become the mere registry office for the decrees of the Government, or any sufficiently powerful faction. The proceedings of Parliament at the close of the Session had on several occasions become a mere byword. One hon. Member who had represented a large constituency and was held in much esteem by the House (the late Mr. Brotherton) had made it his special function to interpose at a reasonable hour of the night for the purpose of relieving representatives from their labours. That hon. Member was now no more, and the matter was now taken up by hands too feeble to do justice to it. If that House desired to maintain its character as a deliberative assembly it must insist on not sitting so many hours that Members were necessarily precluded from previously considering the subjects submitted to their consideration. The Government, notwithstanding their means for ensuring an attendance of supporters, were rendered liable, through the paucity of attendance, to be influenced by faction in the most objectionable form. The House, he thought, ought to insist upon not being compelled to sit so many hours as they had been called upon to do lately. Such a system reduced that assembly to a mere skeleton after one o'clock, and exposed the Government to the vexatious opposition of small sections who, influenced, perhaps, by factious or personal motives, often sought to impose, and sometimes succeeded in imposing, upon Her Majesty's Ministers the most objectionable terms.

MR. BARROW

seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'the Rules against proceeding with opposed Notices and Orders after a quarter before Six of the clock on Wednesdays, under the Standing Order of the 19th day of July, 1854, be applied to all business standing for Evening Sittings, upon which debate shall arise after One of the clock in the morning during the remainder of the Session.'

—instead thereof.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the subject to which attention had been drawn was, no doubt, one of considerable importance, and looking back at the late hours to which the House had sat during the last fortnight, he was not surprised that the hon. Gentleman had brought it forward. It was, indeed, well deserving of consideration whether by the lengthened sittings which had of late prevailed too great a pressure was not put, not only upon Members, but upon the officers of the House. Still he thought it would be very indiscreet to adopt a stringent rule for the purpose of checking the present practice. The hon. Gentleman suggested that the rule existing on Wednesdays in regard to opposed Orders should be adopted generally on all the evenings of the week. But it should be remembered that on Wednesdays the House rose by a Standing Order at six o'clock, whatever business might be proceeding, and it was obvious that great inconvenience would ensue if on those occasions debates were carried on till six o'clock; and therefore the rule was adopted that any debate in progress at a quarter to six should be stopped and no opposed Order taken afterwards, with a view to leave a margin for the unopposed business. But towards the end of the Session it would become absolutely necessary to take some business which might be opposed after one o'clock in the morning. If the hon. Gentleman's Resolution were adopted, it would enable any Member to postpone any Order by merely declaring that he opposed it. The other morning, five divisions took place on the Motion to introduce the Peace Preservation Act Continuance Bill (Ireland), and the Resolution now proposed would have enabled the very small minority on that occasion successfully to prevent the introduction of the Bill. The House ought certainly to exercise moderation in the hours to which it sat, and opposed business should not, except in cases of necessity, be taken at a very late hour. But neither ought the House to tie its hands in every case by a rule of this kind. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion to a division, or that if he did it would not be adopted by the House, for if carried it would lead to great inconvenience by the obstruction of public business, and it would only prolong the period, to which they were all now looking forward, when they would be released from their duties by the prorogation.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

said, that whether the hon. Member pressed his Motion to a division or not, he thought the House was much indebted to him for forcing attention to the subject; for nothing could exceed the unsatisfactory manner in which the public business was at present conducted. The Government, who seemed to be now in the habit of withdrawing most of their important measures, constantly put down on the paper Bills which they must feel they would have to withdraw; and other important Bills were brought on under circumstances which rendered it impossible to discuss them properly. For example, the Government gave a pledge that the Poor Law Board Continuance Bill should be brought on at a time which would allow of its ample discussion, and accordingly it came on at twenty minutes to two o'clock last Friday morning. The Corporation of London Reform Bill had been before the House about three months, and had been on the paper, he believed, thirty-two times. Whenever the Government seemed to have nothing better to do, this miserable measure was appointed for discussion, and then postponed every night, not the slightest suggestion being given to Members or others interested in the subject. Night after night Aldermen were brought down from the City, and though it was said there that the Bill must necessarily be withdrawn, its continuance among the Orders occasioned great practical inconvenience. Then there was the Theatres and Public-houses Bill, which was one of considerable importance. This measure was read a first time at a little before three o'clock on Saturday morning, and now the House was asked to assent to the second reading this evening. Altogether, the mode in which public business was now being conducted was utterly unsatisfactory.

COLONEL SYKES

complained of the course taken with regard to the East India Stock Transfer, &c. Bill, a measure of great importance to the East India Company, who had petitioned to be heard by counsel against it. This Bill was the 24th Order on the paper for that evening.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

admitted that Members were now kept in the House till a very late and disagreeable hour; and there was to-night a list of Orders which was the longest, he believed, within the recollection of the oldest Member. But there was an immense mass of business which it was absolutely necessary to dispose of before the prorogation. The reason why all these Bills had accumulated was obvious. One subject at present occupied the attention of the House until twelve or one in the morning; it was debated, and perhaps properly debated, at great length; and then, and not before, came the ordinary business of the sitting, and it was a constant practice now for Members to object to going on with any matters requiring discussion at that period of the evening. The hon. Gentleman's remedy for this state of things would be no remedy at all—it would increase the evil, instead of diminishing it. At present, by dint of severe pressure, some of the necessary Bills of the Session were advanced a stage every night; but if the Resolution were carried, it was a question if any business would be done whatever; any one Member would be able indefinitely to obstruct the progress of a Bill; and though complaints were now sometimes made that the majority were too much in the hands of the minority, under the new system the minority would be armed with absolute power. One cause of complaint had not hitherto been brought under notice. The Lords were in the habit of passing a Resolution every Session, declaring that they would entertain no Bill which was not read a second time by a certain day. That Resolution was, he believed, in part the cause of the present unsatisfactory state of public business. Measures were now brought in early in the Session, in order that they might go to the other House before the fatal day; and business, instead of being distributed over the Session, was all crowded together till something like a dead lock ensued. He looked upon this comparatively recent practice as a great infringement of the privileges of the Commons. Suppose the House of Commons were to pass a similar Resolution, would not the Peers have a just right to complain? The constitutional duty of both Houses was to receive every Bill sent to them at whatever period of the Session, and to pass them if they were proper Bills. This was one of the causes of the evil which had now been growing for many years; but if the Resolution were passed, he believed the House of Commons would be unable to transact any business whatever.

LORD LOVAINE

said, the duty of the Lords was to consider properly the Bills sent up to them. How were they to do this if the House of Commons, after passing nearly the whole Session in deliberating, sent up Bills at a period when only the most cursory examination of their provisions by the Lords was possible? He thought the Lords had done well in attempting to make the Commons consider their legislative measures, instead of spending their time in discussing matters that were of comparatively trifling importance. As long as the other House existed, due opportunities of deliberation ought, at least, to be afforded it, pending the course of revolution which some hon. Members opposite seemed anxious to engage in.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

Even now a minority has great power to obstruct the progress of business; but according to our existing rules the minority must consist of several Members; if the Resolution proposed by the hon. Member for Warwickshire be adopted, it will give an absolute veto to any single Member as to all business after one o'clock. Now, as every Bill, however innocuous, has some one enemy in this House, it seems to me that any Gentleman who objects to any Bill has only to stop here till one o'clock in order to be able to put an end to all further business. Practically this Resolution would enact that at that hour we must invariably close the proceedings of this House. I have heard propositions made at different times in different forms with a view to a compulsory closing of the business of this House at a certain hour. We all know the inconvenience of long sittings, but the House has always come to the conclusion that it is better to trust to the discretion of Members than to lay down an invariable and inflexible rule, and I hope the House will come to the same conclusion now. The hon. and learned Member for Marylebone has made great complaints of the mode in which the Government have conducted their business this Session, and he seems to think there has been something new and unprecedented in the course we have adopted. I can only say we have pursued the same course as is always pursued by the Government. With respect to the London Corporation Reform Bill there has been a necessity for postponing it, and it is not the first or only measure that has been postponed. I have used every exertion to bring it on without success, and I can only express my regret if any Gentle- men have been inconvenienced by my not being able to proceed with it before this time. I had only the option to postpone it or to discharge the Order, and I did not think I was justified in asking that the Order should be discharged. The hon. and learned Member also referred to a Bill relating to theatres and wine licences. That Bill was introduced by me in consequence of an express understanding which had been come to in this House with the hon. Member for Southwark. The Bill now stands for second reading to-night, but if more time is required for considering it I am willing to postpone it. I do not see how that involves any censure upon me. The hon. and learned Member also states that the Government, contrary to an express promise, proceeded with the Poor Law Continuance Bill at half-past two. I believe that Bill was brought in at half-past twelve [Mr. EDWIN JAMES:—"Half-past one"]. I am assured it was only half-past twelve, and I think the House will agree that for a Continuance Bill at this period of the Session that is not an unreasonable hour.

MR. DISRAELI

I have no wish to enter into any recrimination as to the business of this House; but it appears to me that there is one remedy for the existing evil which might be adopted with good effect. What I would suggest is, that Her Majesty's Government should make up their minds now as to what Bills they will proceed with during the present Session. Is it not unreasonable to ask the Government to adopt that course. The business of the House during the present Session has been of no ordinary character; and though, as appears from our papers, it has been only imperfectly transacted, we must remember that very important financial propositions were brought forward, and it is impossible for the Government to dispose of their other measures in a satisfactory manner till their financial business has been gone through. Until their money business is concluded, they cannot exercise that control over the other business of the House which it is desirable they should exercise. Besides, this Session has been a very peculiar one. We had one financial statement that led to many considerable measures; but that, unfortunately—it is not for me now to enter into the causes why—was an imperfect financial statement, and did not place the House in possession of the monetary position of the country. To-night we are to have another financial statement, which will lead to other measures; and I must remind the House that all of those consequent on the first have not yet been passed. It is therefore quite impossible at this period of the year that we can expect all the important Bills now on the paper to be dealt with satisfactorily. I see on this evening's list the Highways Bill, the Ecclesiastical Commission Bill, the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Bill—all measures of very great weight, I cannot see any prospect of proceeding with all those Bills; and I think Her Majesty's Government ought to make up their minds as soon as possible, and communicate to the House the decision to which they shall have arrived with the least possible delay. I cannot agree with the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie), who on these subjects is very properly considered to be an authority, that the press of business in this House is aggravated by a rule of the Lords. I cannot think that the rule of the Lords which, after all, admits of second readings till the end of the month, has had any ill effect. I cannot but think that the effect of the rule has, on the whole, been salutary. I cannot see that its effect has been to make the Government introduce all their Bills at the beginning of the Session; because I see that many of those now on the paper have been only recently introduced. With regard to the Motion of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), I cannot support it, because in my opinion it would only add to difficulties, to extricate ourselves from which we must depend on the good sense of the House and the management of its chief Members. There is only one other remedy—the application to the House of the provisions of the Factory Act might produce an immediate effect. But I prefer to wait another Session before adopting such a course, and in the mean time to trust to the good sense of hon. Members themselves.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

—I quite concur with the right hon. Gentleman that it will be necessary for the Government attentively to look over these measures, to see—not which can be postponed without inconvenience to the public service, for I think they are all desirable—but which are least urgent, and may with the least amount of inconvenience be postponed to another Session. Indeed, the subject has already in some degree occupied the attention of the Government, and I hope upon an early day to state the result of our deli- berations. The right hon. Gentleman has stated truly enough that this has been a very peculiar Session; and I must remind the House that almost all these important and useful measures were introduced at an early period, only one, I think—the Amalgamation of Forces in India—having been introduced since Easter. It is not the fault of the Government that these important measures have not been proceeded with. In the first place, we had the French Treaty; then the Budget and the measures connected with it; and then, as all Gentlemen will remember, there was a good deal of time consumed in discussing the Reform Bill. I mention that without intending to cast any reproach upon those who contributed to that consumption of time, but simply to prove that it is not from want of exertion on the part of the Government that many at least of these useful measures have not been disposed of. I concur with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that the Motion before us is not one which it is expedient we should adopt. In fact, I think it would be unwise for this House to bind itself unnecessarily by a fixed rule. We have rules enough already, which are mainly devised to protect a minority, however small, against an overbearing majority; and, although the Government of the day has usually no reason to be particularly pleased with the use that is sometimes made of these rules at three or four o'clock in the morning, yet even that rule, which puts it in the power of any small number of Members to impede, if not to stop business, has the value of protecting a minority against an overbearing majority. Therefore, upon general grounds, I am disposed to object to an innovation of this kind, and, with the quantity of business we have now to transact, it seems to me it would be unwise to fetter ourselves in the way proposed. It is an inevitable consequence if you have a great deal of business to transact, and only a limited time to transact it in, that you must sit late— For the best of all ways to lengthen our days Is to steal a few hours from the night, my Boys. There are many Gentlemen who, if they were not engaged here, would probably be equally out of bed at those hours, and possibly employed in ways not so conducive to the public interest.

MR. HENLEY

observed that no one could accuse the noble Lord at the head of the Government of inattention to his du- ties. It would be well for many, who did not spend a tenth part of the time which he did in the House, to imitate his example in that respect. He (Mr. Henley) did not understand his hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire meant to do more than call attention to the subject, as was shown by his moving, on going into Committee on Ways and Means. He thought that air sides of the House would thank his hon. Friend for calling attention to the subject; but he thought it must be left to the discretion of the House to proceed in such a way as to enable them to get through the immense mass of business before them. During the leadership of Sir Robert Peel much progress was made by taking unopposed orders at a late hour, and giving the earlier part of the night to those on which there was a discussion. That plan might perhaps be found useful in the present difficulty. He trusted that his hon. Friend would withdraw his Motion.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he was not so presumptuous as to endeavour to regulate the House, and withdrew the Motion.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed to.