HC Deb 22 July 1858 vol 151 cc1909-24

Order for Committee read.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

Sir, before you leave the Chair, I am anxious to call the attention of the House to a consideration of the figures which appear on the face of this Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in making his financial statement, estimated the revenue for this year at £63,900,000; and he calculated the charges upon that revenue at such an amount as to show to the Committee, ac- cording to his estimate, a surplus of revenue over the expenditure. The debt and Consolidated Fund charges he took at £30,300,000. The Army Estimates were £11,750,000; the Navy Estimates, £9,860,000; the Civil Service Estimates, £7,000,000; and the charge for the Collection of the revenue at £4,700,000—making the total of the Estimates £33,310,000; which, added to the Debt and Consolidated Fund Charges, gave a grand total of £63,610,000, to be compared with a revenue of £63,900,000, showing a surplus of about £300,000. Such was the Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure in the financial statement. We now see from the Appropriation Bill the result of the Votes of the Session; and from what took place in Committee of Supply we may gather what other charges may be anticipated in addition to those which appear in the Appropriation Bill. In this Bill the Debt and Consolidated Fund charges stand at the amount estimated, £30,300,000; the Army Estimates at £12,010,000; the Navy Estimates at £9,839,000—somewhat less than that at which the right hon. Gentleman took them in his Budget; the Civil Service Estimates, 7,240,000; the Collection of Revenue, £4,730,000—nearly the same as the Estimate£making the total amount of Supplies voted £33,819,000. In looking at these figures, however, it must be borne in mind that there must be added to some of the Votes for the Civil Service the amount of balances of previous Votes, which, although they are intended to be defrayed during the year, were not included in the Estimates. There is a difference between balances unexpended and balances unappropriated which it is difficult for some hon. Gentlemen to understand. Balances in the Exchequer are real balances of money, similar to the balance of a private individual at his bankers; but the unappropriated balance of a Vote does not represent money, it is merely an authority to incur expense; and therefore, when the Government diminish the Civil Service Estimates by the unappropriated balances of Votes, they do not provide any Ways and Means, unless they fall back upon the balances in the Exchequer. Therefore, inasmuch as they have, contrary to the usual custom, as was explained in the Committee of Supply, diminished certain Votes by employing the unappropriated Votes of former years, it is necessary to add these amounts to the Votes of the year, in order to ascertain what will be the real charge upon the Exchequer during the present year. On going through the Votes I cannot ascertain that the amount to be so added will be less than £326,000; making the total estimated expenditure of the year, as appears from the Appropriation Bill and the explanations in Committee of Supply, £64,445,000, against an estimated revenue of £63,900,000. Therefore, instead of there being an estimated surplus there is an estimated deficiency in the Ways and Means of the year of £545.000, and an estimated excess of expenditure over the expenditure estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of £835,000. The only way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer can supply that deficiency is either by showing that the produce of the revenue will be greater than his estimate in his financial statement, or by diminishing the balances in the Exchequer, which he is entitled to do if circumstances required it, and if he can show that the balances left at the end of the year will be sufficient. The point to which I wish to call the attention of the House, however, before we go into Committee upon this Bill, is, that as the matter now stands there is an excess of £835,000 over the right hon. Gentleman's Estimate of Expenditure, and that, therefore, instead of there being an estimated surplus of £300,000, there is an estimated deficiency of £545,000. Some Members of the Government have, on certain public occasions, called attention to the state in which the finances were left by the late Government, and have repeatedly asserted that they were in a disorderly and discreditable state. I must reiterate the statement which I have made on former occasions, that the financial difficulty which is alleged to have existed was purely imaginary, unless the present Government had been prepared to fulfil the obligations for the liquidation of debt which had been created in former years. If they had provided Ways and Means to pay off the £2,000,000 of Exchequer bills, and £1,500,000 due to the Sinking Fund, undoubtedly their difficulties would have been considerable; but those difficulties they have avoided by postponing these obligations, and, as a result, they were actually able to propose a diminution of taxation for the year. That is to say, the plan which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to the Committee was, that £2,000,000 of income tax should be ultimately abandoned, and that £1,000,000 should be given up in the present year. At the same time he proposed to impose taxes which would produce £800,000. Therefore, according to his scheme, the taxes for the year were reduced by £200,000. Now, it is quite clear that if the right hon. Gentleman has been able to propose a reduction of taxation, and at the same time to propose estimates in excess of the estimates of the preceding year, there could have been no real financial difficulty. Had he proposed any financial plan which would ultimately have diminished the annual burdens of the country by liquidating a portion of the debt this year, he might with justice have affirmed that he had a great financial difficulty to deal with; but the obligations for the repayment of debt being postponed, that difficulty was purely imaginary and unreal. The result to which we come, then, is this—that, according to the apparent state of the finances, the right hon. Gentleman has not an estimated surplus, but an estimated deficiency. The deficiency, I admit, is not large, but, nevertheless, it is a deficiency. I must also call the attention of the House to the fact that the Government have brought in Bills enabling them to embody the militia, and to send regiments of that force abroad; but they have provided no Ways and Means to defray the probable expense of carrying out those Acts. I trust that they may not be called upon to exercise to any great extent the powers which they seek, and that the amount voted for the army may furnish them with the means of meeting that extraordinary expense. Still, this is a power which cannot be exercised without incurring expense, and we have not yet heard by what means it is intended that that expense should be defrayed. There is only one other point to which I wish to call the attention of the House. On one occasion the right hon. Gentleman said—I do not know whether or not he meant it as a deliberate statement—that every day proved to him more and more the lavishness and profuseness with which the late Government had conducted its expenditure. He gave no example; and I do not know that there is any better mode of testing the truth of the charge than by comparing the Estimates of the late Government, presented last year, with those which the present Government have submitted to the House in the present one, both of which Estimates have received the assent of the House. The remark of the right hon. Gentleman, as I understood it, applied particularly to the Civil Service Estimates. Those Estimates last year were £7,400,000; for the present year they are £7,240,000. To that sum, however, we must add undisdisposed-of balances £326,000, making the real amount this year £7,566,000, which shows an increase of £166,000 over the Estimates of last year. Therefore, notwithstanding the statement of the right hon. Gentleman as to the great profuseness of the late Government, particularly in regard to the Civil Service, it appears that their Estimates for that service exceed those of last year by more than £160,000; and, under these circumstances, I think that he will find it difficult to substantiate his charge. I thought it important that the House should not pass this Bill without its attention being called to the comparison which I have laid before it, and I trust that upon examination it will be found that the details of that comparison are fully borne out by the figures to which I have referred.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

Sir, I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman opposite should have taken so legitimate and proper an occasion to call the attention of the House to the general state of our finances. I do not think, however, that the House will expect me at this moment to enter into a rival criticism of the two systems of finance which have been recently brought under our consideration. I am, however, prepared to give, if the House should require it, an authentic statement of the real position of the revenue and expenditure of the country. The right hon. Gentleman stated that I had failed to prove that the revenue exceeded the expenditure of the country, as I had alleged, when I made my financial statement to the House. Now, I believe that the right hon. Gentleman will find it difficult to bring forward any single instance in which, after the expiration of a quarter of a year or more, the estimated expenditure of the country has been found to be precisely the amount at which it was fixed when the financial statement was made. Estimates at all times are very difficult results to ascertain, and there is no doubt that as matters now stand there is an excess of expenditure over the estimate I offered to the House in the course of my financial statement. At the same time, I trust I may be allowed to say, that the revenue has considerably exceeded the estimate I then offered. If I bad to make the financial statement now, and to estimate the revenue for the current year, I should place it at a much higher figure than when I made my first financial proposition to the House. We have now before us the experience of one quarter of the financial year, and more than a fortnight of the second quarter. In making the financial statement I recognized the fact that the two first quarters of the financial year were really those in which the present Government would find the greatest difficulty. The country was recovering but very gradually recovering from a state of great commercial pressure and even convulsion; and in the first quarter of the financial year we were compelled to meet circumstances certainly of a not very encouraging character. It was hoped in the second quarter that the state of affairs would improve. It appears that our expectations then were not too sanguine. We have now experience of the first quarter of the financial year, in which some hon. Members were disposed to anticipate the most gloomy results. The result, however, is that our surplus of income over expenditure for the first quarter in the present year is £223,944. Therefore, in the first quarter, when our expectations were thus differently directed, we have obtained a not very inconsiderable surplus of income over expenditure, and that increase may be observed by this analysis:—The Customs produced in the first quarter £5,879,000, being £30,000 in excess of the amount at which in the course of my financial statement I estimated the revenue derived from this source, and that too at a time when, I need not remind the House, the trade of the country was peculiarly depressed. Well, the Excise I estimated at £4,307,600, which was considered at the time too high. There has been an excess over that estimate in the last quarter of nearly £70,000. This augmentation took place, notwithstanding the steps which were taken by the distillers to anticipate the contemplated increase of duty, which naturally produced an injurious effect upon the revenue. The stamps produced in the last quarter, in round numbers, £2,084,000; the proportion, according to my estimate, was £1,962,000. Therefore there was in the receipt of stamps an excess of £122,000. The income tax produced, in that quarter, £1,200,000, being consider- ably more than I calculated upon. The receipts of the Post Office and the Crown lands I need not now comment upon. But under the head of miscellaneous, I calculated the amount for the year to be £1,200,000. There was, however, received in that quarter upwards of £355,000. Thus in the first quarter of the financial year there is an excess under this head of £55,000 over the estimate I made. So much for that question, in respect to which some hon. Members took the most gloomy view. As the state of our revenue has been especially called under the attention of the House, I trust I shall be allowed to mention the following further gratifying facts which I have obtained from the most authentic information. I wish to show the House the state of the revenue with regard to a portion of the present quarter, namely, from the 1st July to the 19th of the same month. I will leave the House to draw their own conclusion from the facts I am now about to state. These are the last Returns I have had. Now, in 1857, during those same eighteen days, the Customs produced £867,000—that being a time, it will be recollected, before commercial convulsion, and when the prospects of our commerce and the activity of our trade were apparently encouraging. Well, during that same period in the present year, 1858, the Customs produced £1,063,000, leaving a surplus of £196,000. The Excise during the same favourable period of 1857 produced £623,000. The Excise during the same period of the current year was £728,000, being a surplus of about £105,000. The stamps during those eighteen days in the last year amounted to £297,000. In the present year they produced for the same period £340,000, being a surplus of £43,000. The Post Office department during this busy time in 1857 produced £30,000, and my estimate on this head was said to be greatly exaggerated. Now, in the eighteen days of the present year, being a comparatively depressed time, it has produced £50,000, being a surplus of £20,000. The aggregate of the income in those four great branches shows more than anything else the real condition of the country. Well, that aggregate increase in the receipt for the eighteen days of this year over the same period in the last year is £364,000. Now, I think that this statement will enable you all to go to your respective constituents with no very gloomy view of the financial affairs of the country in the present year at all events. And when I am told that instead of a surplus I have left the country exposed to all the inconveniences of a deficiency, I appeal with confidence to those figures and congratulate the House upon the encouraging condition of our revenue. Although, Sir, the House gave us the power of raising £2,000,000 in order to pay off the Exchequer bonds, we have only availed ourselves of that power to the extent of £1,000,000, and we have every hope and expectation that we shall not find it necessary to exceed that amount. So that if affairs proceed as they promise to do now there is no doubt we shall be able to reduce our debt to the amount of £1,000,000 this year. After the statement I have just made, I trust that the House will consider that I have given a sufficient answer to the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman. There are, however, one or two points to which the right hon. Gentleman referred which I feel I must notice. The one is with reference to the possible expenditure to be incurred in respect to the Militia Bills which I have introduced. One of those Bills is for the embodiment of the militia; the other is to enable the Government to employ the militia force in foreign countries. On that subject I can only say that the expenditure under those heads is contingent. It does not at all follow that although we have thought it prudent to ask for them, we shall recommend to Her Majesty to avail herself of the powers granted under those Bills, or that those powers will ever be put in operation. I believe, Sir, it is quite unusual, and indeed unnecessary, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to anticipate an expenditure under such circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman also observed that I had charged the late Government with profuse expenditure in the administration of the public revenues, and he appeals to a comparison of the Estimates of the two Governments to prove the fallacy of that charge which, he further remarks, was applied especially to the Civil Service Estimates. Now, Sir, I believe that no charge of the kind was ever made by me against the late Government, namely, that they left the finances of the country in disorder, or in a dangerous position. No such words have ever escaped my lips. So far from entertaining such an opinion, I can bear witness to the wise and prudent administration of the office I now have the honour to hold by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The observations I made involved a charge generally against the late Government and was not applicable to the right hon. Gentleman individually. That was a charge of profuse expenditure generally, and did not apply to the Civil Service Estimates, but rather to those greater branches of the expenditure which are brought before us for our consideration. I said—and this is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman when he tries to prove that there has not been a profuse expenditure by comparing the almost similar amounts of the estimates of the late and present Government—I say that you cannot have reduction in a moment. I say now what I impressed upon the House when I made the observation which is complained of—that expenditure depends in a great measure upon policy. When I said that I was not thinking at all of the Civil Service Estimates, I was thinking rather that it was the policy of the late Government which had brought the public affairs of the country into such a state, as to render it necessary to keep up large armaments in a time of peace. I trust, Sir, that by following a different policy, we shall be able to reduce those armaments, and consequently to lessen considerably the burdens of the country. Therefore, the observations of the right hon. Gentleman, founded on the similarity of the Estimates, and apparently attributing to me a want of candour, when brought to the test of truth, fall point lessly to the ground. I think, Sir, I have now answered the principal observations of the right hon. Gentleman. From the statements I have made, I am fully justified in congratulating the country upon the improved state of our finances. It appears to me that the prospects before us are highly favourable. Through the gloomiest quarter, as anticipated by some hon. Members, of the financial year we have obtained a surplus of income over our expenditure to the amount of £239,000. During a period of less than three weeks in the present month there has been a gradual, but at the same time considerable, augmentation in our revenue, amounting in the whole to £364,000. And those principal heads show, more than any other, the social prosperity and commercial condition of the country. Our prospects for the continuance of this quarter and for the next half year give us, therefore, no reason whatever to assume that they will be of a gloomier character. Quite the re- verse. By the blessing of Providence we have before us the prospect of an abundant harvest, and the influence of that fact upon the revenue of the country is too well known to every Member of this house for me to dwell upon. What are the other prospects before us? The prospect of peace at this moment—without any offence to hon. Gentlemen opposite—is far more satisfactory than it was a year or six months ago. No one can deny, whether we appeal to the continent of Europe or to the other side of the Atlantic, that everything wears a most encouraging aspect to those who believe that by a conciliatory, though firm policy, this state of things may be secured and maintained. The only source of anxiety and trouble that the House and the country have at present is, no doubt, the present condition of India. But the condition of India is one which, we consider, must not only be met with energy, but at the same time with a policy of conciliation. Sir, I not only hope, but believe, that under such a policy our affairs in India will assume a very different, and far more favourable character than they have heretofore been. Without indulging in any language of exaggeration, without colouring our position in too favourable a light, I think it is one upon which I may very fairly congratulate the country; and, so far as the finances of the country are concerned, it appears to me that they were never in a more healthy condition than at present; and the prospect before us, too, is one which I think ought to give satisfaction to every lover of his country.

MR. WILSON

said, he did not rise to throw any doubt upon the statements made by the right hon. Gentleman. It must be doubly gratifying to the House to hear that the finances were in a better state than appeared from the public accounts, and to learn that, as was shown by the increase of revenue from the sources to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, trade was really reviving. He must, however, remind the House that it was somewhat unusual to estimate the revenue of the whole year from that of a portion of the year. Those who were acquainted with commerce must know that when trade began to revive after a period of depression, the retail dealers made large purchases, and it was from these purchases, and the consequent clearances at the Custom-houses, rather than from the actual consumption of the moment, that the increase of revenue was derived. He did not wish to throw any doubt upon the anticipations of the right hon. Gentleman; he sincerely hoped that they would be realized, and that the thorough revival of trade might bring into the Exchequer those large sums upon which he had calculated. He must remind the House that his right hon. Friend the Member for Radnor (Sir G. C. Lewis), by no means questioned the present state of the finances. All that he desired to do was to call the attention of the House to the miscalculations which were made by the right hon. Gentleman in his budget, and which seemed to throw some blame upon the late Government. Because when the right hon. Gentleman made his financial statement he proposed to reduce the Estimates by £800,000; 400,000, on the Army and Navy, and £400,000 on the Civil Service Estimates. Experience had since proved that instead of there being a decrease in the Civil Service Estimates there was an increase of upwards of £100,000; instead of there being a decrease in the Army Estimates there was an increase of nearly £200,000, and in the Navy Estimates there was a decrease of only about £30,000. The result of all the financial operations since the budget was, that instead of there being a surplus of £300,000, there was a deficiency of £535,000. At the same time the right hon. Gentleman was quite right in saying that the increased expenditure had been met by an increase of revenue, and therefore it might lead to no financial embarrassment. In the present excited and depressed state of the financial world out of doors he would drop no word which might lead any one to believe that there were any grave apprehensions of financial difficulties in the coming year. To one point he would refer, in the hope that that of which he complained might not occur again. It was altogether contrary to the practice of that House to present Estimates which did not represent the exact expenditure of the year, and thereby inferentially mislead the House. He did not mean to blame his hon. Friend the Secrecretary of the Treasury; but, in regard to the Civil Service Estimates, this irregularity had been committed. Under six heads of expenditure they had Estimates amounting to £1,013,000, showing a decrease of not less than £398,000, upon those of last year; and any one who looked at the Vote would think that a saving to that amount had been effected. Such, however, was not the case. The actual ex- penditure during the year would be not less than £1,340,000, or £326,000 more than the sum voted. The Vote for Government prisons, convict establishments, &c. last year was, in round numbers, £653,000; this year it was only £544,000, showing an apparent saving of £120,756. The fact was, that the actual expenditure during the year would be £665,000, or £12,000 more than the estimate of last year. He could not but express a hope that in future the Estimates would be prepared so as to show the probable expenditure within the year, and not, by depending upon the unappropriated balances, show an apparent reduction when there was a real excess. Some time ago the House was told that it was quite wrong to provide Ways and Means for a Sinking Fund, that they ought to rely upon the natural excess of income over expenditure. If such an excess was provided, well and good. His right hon. Friend had, however, shown that, according to the frame of the budget for the present year, instead of a surplus there was a deficiency of £500,000; and it was worse than idle to talk of reducing the national debt by means of the excess of income over expenditure, if no such excess was provided. Between the years 1816 and 1828 the Sinking Fund paid off £54,000,000 of debt, while during the twenty-five years after the abolition of that fund only £21,000,000 was paid off; and now, instead of the debt being less than it was in 1828, it exceeded it by £6,000,000. Despite the flattering account which the right hon. Gentleman had given of the revenue, he had never seen a time at which for so long a period there had been such gloom and despondency in the money-market as had existed lately; and he hoped that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman would produce a more cheerful state of things. Our Estimates, both for the naval, military, and civil services, had lately seriously and steadily increased, and unless we could take some step which would lead to their diminution, we must be prepared to submit to an increase of taxation in some form or other.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, he could assure the House that there had been no material departure from the ordinary mode of framing the Estimates. His own opinion was however, that that matter was susceptible of great improvement, and it was the intention of the Government to carry out as far as practicable the suggestions of the Committee on Public Moneys. The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson) had stated that something had been done in the present year with regard to the Estimates which had not taken place upon former occasions, alluding to the fact that there were six items in which reference was made to the unexpended balances of previous years. In the Estimates for 1857–8 there were just the same number of items in which the same observations were contained. The hon. Gentleman knew as well as any one the mode in which the Estimates were prepared. The object of every department was to ascertain the amount requisite to be put in the Estimates for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the current year, and he did not think that tiny department allowed itself to be actuated by any consideration except a honest desire to do its duty. In the present instance the Government had not sought to reduce the amount of the Estimates by a reference to existing balances. The practice in question was not a good one, and it would be far better that the amount likely to be required for the current year should be voted by the House, unexpended balances being paid as surplus into the Exchequer.

MR. CRAWFORD

said, he wished to ask whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer could state what portion of the increase that had taken place in stamps and taxes during the greater portion of July was due to the penny stamp upon bankers' cheques?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that he could not give the information which the hon. Gentleman required at the present moment, nor did he think it was necessary to do so. He might state generally that the impost upon drafts had quite realized the Estimate made in April.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

observed, that he viewed with some degree of alarm the silent but gradual growth of the public expenditure. The people of England paid in the shape of compensation and superannuation alone as much as would maintain the whole civil establishments of any other kingdom on the face of the earth. Upon that one item the repeal of a single clause in an Act of Parliament had cost the country something like £80,000 a year. This item, which he might call the dead weight, was gradually increasing every year, and demanded the special attention of the Government with the view to its better control and reduction. It was gratifying, no doubt, to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the buoyant state of the public revenue; but it should not be forgotten that they were doing nothing whatever towards the extinction of the National Debt, to which £40,000,000 had been added within the last few years. He was glad to hear from the Secretary of the Treasury that the Government were likely to have the recommendations of the Committee on Public Money carried into effect. He was of opinion that they should take measures to check the expenditure of the country.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

stated that the expenditure for the army and navy last year was just double the amount of the Estimates for those services when the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel were in office. The present Government had, much to their credit, made a considerable reduction, and he hoped they would continue to pursue the same course.

House in Committee.

Clauses 1 to 24 were agreed to.

Clause 25.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he would move to insert the following proviso:— Provided always, that whenever, in consequence of an exigency of the Public Service, the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury shall authorise an appropriation of the Public Money, in addition to the aggregate sum voted for any Service in any Department, every such appropriation shall be presented in a Supplementary Estimate to be approved and sanctioned by the House of Commons, if Parliament is sitting, and, if Parliament is not sitting, then within one month after the meeting of Parliament. The object which he had in view was simply to impose a check upon the expenditure of money by providing that the purposes for which the House voted sums of money should be strictly observed, and that there should be no departure in the appropriation of the public money, except an application were made to Parliament on the subject, and the House should assent to the proposed diversion of the public money. Last year a considerable sum was spent in the Naval Department in excess of the authorized Estimate—a proceeding which he regarded as utterly destructive of the power and control of Parliament, and which ought to be prevented in future. It was a fact, that the supervision exercised by the Controller of the Exchequer was not adequate to effect the object for which it was intended.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that this was the revival of a suggestion which had been laid before the Committee on Public Moneys last Session, and would probably form matter for consideration next Session. If the Report of the Committee should be acted upon by the Government proposing a measure founded upon it, all cause of complaint might be removed. The practice adopted recently by the Government was, that no money voted for special purposes could be otherwise dealt with than by leave of the Treasury. It was absolutely necessary that the Government should be armed with discretionary powers in those matters; and although no Government liked to be armed with large discretionary powers as they entailed a proportionate increase of responsibility, nevertheless he submitted it was for the convenience of Parliament that the Government should be allowed, in cases of emergency, to make transfers from one branch of a department to another. If such discretionary powers were not intrusted to them, they might be compelled to call Parliament together in October or December to give its sanction to the transfer or expenditure of the comparatively trifling sum of £100,000. He was opposed to the Amendment, believing that it would not only create a great inconvenience in the conduct of the financial affairs of the country, but that it would be in effect repealing the former part of the clause. He thought that the hon. Gentleman should, in the first instance, have proposed to expunge the clause altogether.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he thought some such provision as that proposed by the hon. Baronet was required. Sums in excess might be so voted that a Vote of an unpopular character might be made up out of the surplus of a popular Vote. They were not informed of the disposal of the money until long after it had been expended.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

confessed he felt considerable difficulty in understanding what the hon. Gentleman meant by his proviso. The provisions of the Bill were sufficiently stringent for all practical purposes, and he thought that the adoption of the proviso would have the effect of tying up the hands of the Government in cases of great emergency, and would therefore fetter that discretion which it was found necessary to give them. The Government had only power, upon leave of the Treasury, to transfer, in cases of need, the power granted under the head of a particular de- partment to another head of that same department. They had no power to divert the money voted from any one department to another.

MR. WILSON

stated that the object which the hon. Baronet had in view was already practically attained. This question had been raised two years ago, and a provision was then made that when Parliament met it should be put in possession of the mode of disposal of these sums. He thought it was desirable the correspondence should be laid before the House, as well as the statement of expenditure.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he was not bigotedly attached to the phraseology of the proviso, but he wished the House to have the fullest control over such expenditure by means of express communication from Government to the House.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 41; Noes 89: Majority 48.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

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