HC Deb 26 April 1858 vol 149 cc1725-40

The system which it was proposed to substitute for the present one was ad- mission by competition to the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst of boys between the ages of 16 and 18. After passing through Sandhurst, they were to be admitted to Woolwich, which was to cease to be a place of theoretical instruction, and to be a place for practical classes only. The two questions on which he would ask the decision of the House were as to the expediency of altering the age of admission from 17 to 20 to 16 and 18, and next as to the expediency of giving a monopoly to Sandhurst, to the prejudice of other schools. He believed the effect would be not only to inflict a great injury on the service, but on Sandhurst College itself. At no one of the five or six competitive examinations which wore held at Woolwich did a pupil from Sandhurst present himself. Was it expedient under such circumstances, to give a monopoly of instruction to Sandhurst—a college which up to the present time had not entitled itself to any very largo amount of public favour? It was distinctly stated in the Report of the Commissioners on Military Education that all the great military powers of Europe preferred educating the officers of the Artillery and Engineers apart from the officers of the line; and for this very obvious reason —that in large schools the character of the instruction must conform to the capacities of the greater number, and, therefore, the effect of educating officers of the line in the same academy with the officers of Engineers and Artillery must be to reduce the standard of education to the level of that required for the line. In Sardinia there was a common school for boys between the ages of 12 and 14; but that case bore no analogy to the case under discussion. At Addiscombe the Artillery and Engineer pupils were educated with the line pupils, but there they were in the proportion of three-fifths to two-fifths, so that the scientific element prevailed, and the standard of education was not lowered. But it would be different at Sandhurst, where there were to be 500 boys, only 80 of whom were to be instructed for the scientific corps. If there were inherent objections to the education in common of young men intended for the scientific corps and for the line in foreign countries, in this country the system of purchase which prevailed considerably increased the force of those objections. It was well known that in the Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery there was no purchase, while purchase was allowed into the line regiments. According to the new system, if a young man succeeded in entering Sandhurst, the chances were six to one that he would not succeed in the final competition for entering into the Engineers or Artillery, and if he did not succeed in obtaining an entrance to Woolwich, and was not rich enough to purchase into the line the whole time which he would have spent in Sandhurst would be thrown away, and after a long training and much expense he would be left without any career open to him at all. Then, if a young man of mathematical attainments succeeded in the final examination at Sandhurst, he would have to pass a year and a half or two years if he elected to enter the Engineers or Artillery, whereas if he selected a line regiment he would be able to join his regiment at once; and if a person with money and interest, he would be able to rise more rapidly than if he entered the scientific corps. Therefore, whether with regard to the rich or the poor, there were objections to the amalgamation of the two bodies. The only step which he would ask the right hon. and gallant General to take was in the words of Colonel Wilford, the head of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich—to allow theoretical and practical instruction to be imparted together up to the day a cadet received his commission, to raise the age of admission from between 16 to 18 to between 17 and 20, and to allow gentlemen at whatever schools they were educated to compete with the cadets at Sandhurst for admission into the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich. This would give an impetus to the education of the country generally, and to Sandhurst itself. That was not an unreasonable request. He did not want to interfere with the establishment of a great college for the line at Sandhurst, but he desired to leave the system pursued at Woolwich untouched. Everybody now admitted that the existing system worked admirably, and that the boys admitted to Woolwich were not only persons of superior intellectual attainments, but were in every other respect qualified for the service to which they aspired; he believed that it was now felt to be necessary to raise the mathematical standard that had hitherto obtained at Woolwich, on account of the high attainments of the cadets that had entered by competition, and a consequence would be, he thought, materially to advance the general education of the country. It was notorious that under the stimulus of the existing system, different schools had organized a military department and trained their pupils for admission to Woolwich; and he understood that those great schools, Eton and Harrow, were prepared, if the system was permanently established, to lay themselves out to give their pupils that amount of mathematical instruction which would be necessary to give them a good chance of success at Woolwich. He believed, however, that the effect of forcing every pupil who wished to enter Woolwich to pass through Sandhurst would be to reduce the education of our scientific corps below that of the scientific corps of any other nation in Europe. Under the new system, the boys would be obliged to go to Sandhurst—to a school in which the great majority of the pupils were intended, not for the Engineers or Artillery, but for the line. Under such circumstances it would be impossible that a high amount of mathematical training could be imparted there. He would then go to Woolwich, where he would receive only practical instruction. Compare this system with the system pursued in France, where the pupil, after passing through the Ecole Polytechnique, the highest mathematical school perhaps in the world, was sent to the College of Metz, in which the theoretical instruction was continued, united with a practical course of instruction. Compare the probable scientific attainments of an officer who had been for two years under the direction of the highest mathematical abilities which France can produce with those of one whose whole scientific training* had taken place at Sandhurst in a line college where the scientific education would be regulated by the requirements of the line. Was it possible that the latter could be equal to the former in some of the particulars which were most necessary to the formation of a good artilleryman or engineer? He entreated the right hon. and gallant General not to alter a system which had worked exceedingly well, and which was acknowledged by every one to produce the very men that were required for the scientific departments of the army; not to allow the scientific corps of this country to be intellectually lowered, but to permit the pupils of other schools to compete with the eleves of Sandhurst for admission to the Royal Artillery and Engineers. The light hon. Gentleman concluded by his Motion.


seconded the Motion. He was persuaded that the system of competitive examination, as established at Woolwich had created the greatest satisfaction in the public mind and had been productive of the best results, by stimulating the progress of a high-class education throughout the country; and he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman, instead of consenting to alter it, would maintain it, and would endeavour to carry out the excellent practical recommendations of the right hon. Member for Limerick.

Amendment proposed,— To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that no alteration may be made in the principle of the existing arrangements which regulate the admission to Cadetships in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers," instead thereof.


expressed his concurrence in many of the observations of the right hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell). It was true that at Addiscombe young men intended for the Indian service wore educated for the Artillery, the Engineers, and the line; but, as the right hon. Gentleman had slated, the great majority of those pupils entered the scientific branches of the army, and a very small proportion entered the line. He believed that there the system of educating for the three branches of the service was attended with considerable advantage, because the minority went into the line, and the education was of a character suited to the majority; but if a similar course were adopted at Sandhurst, and the whole army were to be educated there, he believed—as the majority would not go into the scientific corps—that the effect would be to lower the general standard of education. The gentlemen educated at Woolwich were fit to compote with those educated at the Ecole Polytechnique, and he hoped that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary for War would not for any consideration break up the existing system, which had produced such excellent results. There could be no question as to the high mathematical attainments of those educated at Woolwich. Many of them were fit to compete with the wranglers at Cambridge. The contemplated alteration would very much lower the standard of military education.


said, he had on a previous occasion expressed himself to be as strongly in favour of a system of competitive examination as any person in the United Kingdom, and that his only fear was that the Crown might, under that system, lose the power of nominating the gentlemen who were to compete at these examinations. He found that the power was reserved in the present plan, because the Commander in Chief had now a wholesome control with regard to the gentlemen who wished to enter the college at Sandhurst. The friends or relatives of those gentlemen were obliged to furnish the Commander in Chief with their names, characters, and attributes, in order that he might judge whether they were fit to compete. With regard to Woolwich—to be sure he was one of them himself—but he would appeal to Europe whether it had not produced as least as able artillery officers and engineers as any military college in the world. It was so in the Peninsular war— it was so in the Crimean war. He could assure the House that the apprehension of some persons that the competitive system would exclude the higher orders was unfounded. He knew two youths of great promise who were now receiving a military education under the existing system—one of them the son of an Earl, who was a Cabinet Minister, and the other the son of a Viscount, and he never met with young men of higher promise; but by the new regulation those two youths would be thrown out. He, therefore, warned the light hon. and gallant General the Secretary for War not to insist in enforcing it. He had given this question his most serious consideration, and should he happy to support the Motion.


I must begin by correcting the impression which seems to prevail that I have made any alteration in the system of military education. [Mr. MON-SELL: I never said so.] No, but an an hon. Member behind me did. The facts of the case were these. Up to 1855, and previous to the commencement of the Russian war, the system of admission to the Woolwich Academy was by the direct nomination, by the Master General of the Ordnance, of cadets between the ages of fourteen and sixteen. But in 1855, as the war proceeded, such was the pressure for officers in consequence of two battalions of Artillery and one mid a half battalion of Engineers additional having been raised, that the Royal Academy at Woolwich was not able to supply the requisite number of cadets. Sir Hew Ross, in the absence of Lord Raglan, appointed seven- teen cadets, without reference to study in the academy. When Lord Panmure was appointed to the office of Secretary for War, he instituted the system of open competitive examinations, and by that system a certain number of young men received provisional commissions, while others received admissions to the practical class at Woolwich. This system was continued through the years 1855 and 1856, so that there were three examinations for provisional commissions and as many for admissions to the practical class. When peace was proclaimed, both these modes of examination came to an end, as well as all entries to the theoretical class at Woolwich. It appeared that at that time Lord Panmure contemplated that the practical class should be established at Sandhurst, and so put an end to the class at Woolwich. When I entered on office that was the state of things. The last examination for Woolwich had taken place, and the first for Sandhurst, where the competitors for cadetships were to be of age between sixteen and eighteen, with the perfect understanding that cadetships would be conferred for a successful scientific examination. The only alteration I have made in the regulations is this:—It was represented to me that the sudden termination of these examinations at Woolwich would be of great hardship to those young gentlemen who had been preparing for the examination at Woolwich on the faith that it would continue; and that several would be excluded from competing at Sandhurst; therefore, with the concurrence of his Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, I appointed two more examinations for cadetships in Woolwich, in order to afford an opportunity for the examination of those persons who were preparing for the examination, whom these regulations would have excluded. There is also a general impression abroad that the admissions to Sandhurst will not be as free and open to competition as those which took place at Woolwich. But, in conjunction with his Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, I have so altered the terms of admission to the competitions that there will not be the slightest difficulty in obtaining admission to the competition at Sandhurst in the same way as heretofore at Woolwich. The parents or friends of candidates have now to furnish the Commander in Chief with certain necessary particulars; and any young man whose name has been properly forwarded will be placed on the list, and will be permitted to compete at any of the half yearly examinations to which his age entitles him. He will enter Sandhurst precisely on the same terms as he would have entered Woolwich. I have no preference for one system over the other; but I must say that the objections made to Sandhurst are altogether erroneous. One objection has been raised against Sandhurst on the score of expense. But the expense of obtaining admission to the scientific branch remains exactly as it was before. A. cadet must pass two years at Woolwich—one in the theoretical and one in the practical class; and the expense was £125 a year, or £250 a year. Now, at Sandhurst the expense will be £100 in each year, and if at the end of two years the young man should succeed in obtaining at the class examination a position which will enable him to select the scientific branch of the service, he will obtain a provisional commission, which will enable him to maintain himself at the practical class. But I think it is not only for the advantage of the pupil, but also for the public at large, for it opens the way to a greater number of candidates than we can expect under the present system. A cadet now gets his admission to the school at Woolwich, and as he is then sure of his commission provided he reaches a certain standard, he has no object in endeavouring to pass beyond it; whereas, now the prospect of securing his commission will stimulate him to pass the further examinations. The right hon. Gentleman opposite is mistaken in supposing that the first competitive examination will not be of as high a standard as that for nomination to Woolwich. I believe that the examination will be quite as high as at Woolwich— possibly higher because the number of competitors will be greater—and I anticipate from it much benefit to those branches of the service that are not so properly scientific, as it will contribute to raise the standard of their education. I repeat, I have no feeling whatever in favour of the present system. I found it established by Lord Panmure, who has paid great attention to the subject, who sent forth a Commission to inquire into the means of military education in foreign countries, and with all these means of forming a judgment before him, came to a deliberate conclusion of having one college both for the line and for the scientific branches of the army. This was also the opinion of the Military Commission on Education, composed of military men and others, who were probably much more capable than Members of the House of Commons of dealing with this question. I would advise the House, therefore, to be cautious how they condemn this system of education by agreeing to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, I do not think it is possible that the House can agree to the Motion, because if they will agree to no alteration in the present system at Woolwich, I want to know how faith is to be kept with those young gentlemen who have entered Sandhurst upon the understanding that they were to compete? I am not sure but the best method for the House to adopt would be to appoint a Committee to inquire into the best method of military education, because, whether we adopt the one system or the other, it will be attended with expense, which the House must sanction. The Motion cannot be acceded to, but I shall be happy to support a Motion to inquire into the best mode of military scientific education.


, in explanation, said there was not a single Artillery officer in the commission alluded to by the right hon. and gallant General.


One is an Engineer.


said, he would briefly state the reasons that seemed to him decisive in favour of the Motion. One was, that the present system which it was sought to change gave a powerful stimulus to education throughout the country. The master of every important school now felt that some of his leading pupils might compete at these examinations, and knew it would be a great slur on him if they failed, and a great credit if they succeeded. A stronger motive could not be devised to make every schoolmaster give a vigorous and energetic education to his pupils. He further objected to the proposed system, because he thought it was bad that hoys should begin to be educated for a special profession at so early an age. Nothing could tend so much to narrow and cramp the full development of a boy's mind as to confine him, from the time he reached so early an age as sixteen, among lads all of whom were destined for the military service, or any other special profession, and whose whole ideas, therefore, ran in that circle. It would be far better that he should mix with youths intended for various professions, as at Eton, Harrow, and Rugby, than that be should be thrown exclusively among boys preparing for the army. Their true policy was to secure the greatest amount of ability for the Artillery and Engineer corps. The artillery played the most important part in modern warfare. It had been said that at Inker-man Colonel Dixon's two guns did as much as anything else to decide the fate of the day. They should remember, too, when there was so much talk of foreign invasion, that it was the Engineers to whom the construction of our fortifications and our barracks and the conduct of sieges were intrusted; and in India public works, on which the prosperity of the people so much depended, were executed by the same corps. Sonic persons found fault with open competition, because it was thought that the higher classes would be elbowed out by persons who were not gentlemen. Nobody, however, doubted that that principle at least secured men of talent. On these and other grounds he would give his cordial support to this Motion. They were not the true friends of the aristocracy who sought to pamper and protect them. They had shown that at Oxford and Cambridge, in that House, on the field of battle, and in literature, they were able to hold their own with the foremost; and nothing could be better for them than to encounter the tug of war with those below them in rank. It was alleged that it would not be fair to the young men at Sandhurst to keep up this open competition. But was there a fear, then, that these young men would be defeated by their competitors? If, so, were we to throw aside men of higher for men of less ability?


said, he feared the proposed change was a retrograde step towards the old system of nomination, which was obnoxious to the House and the country. That change went directly in the teeth of all the evidence before them. Persons of all ranks and all classes ought to be allowed to enter these services on equal terms, and he should be as sorry as the hon. and gallant Member for Calne (Sir W. Williams) to see the sons of the aristocracy excluded. But what was the testimony of the late Secretary of State for War, by whom the Commission for an inquiry into this subject was appointed? Lord Panmure, speaking of the working of the system, said that they had candidates from all classes, some clergymen's sons and some officers' sons, but not one belonging to what was termed the lower classes; that they were all what were called gentlemen's sons, and their conduct proved that, whether really gentlemen's sons or not, they had all been educated for the society of gentlemen. Such was the evidence of that high authority as to the practical operation of open examination after it had been established a year. And Lord Panmure added, that the officer at the head of the establishment had given him his assurance that the system had been attended with great success, both as to the demeanour of the youths as gentlemen at mess and as to their acquirements as officers. The Commissioners had also reported strongly in favour of the existing system, and against the proposed change. After investigating the academies of all the great military States of the Continent, their conclusion was, that the proper remedy for the admission of improperly qualified candidates was to make the admission depend upon the results of open competitive examination, conducted with the utmost fairness to all. Colonel Banks, indeed, thought the admission of persons of all classes without distinction was extremely objectionable, and that all commissions for the Royal Artillery ought to be in the hands of the Secretary for War, or the Commander in Chief. But in answer to this the Commissioners stated that in those foreign schools which brought the principle of competition most freely into play, the instruction was most complete, and that as the success of that system at our own Universities was not confined to any one class, they were at a loss to understand the exact bearing of the objection to open competition. What pretext, then, was there for abolishing a system so strongly supported, and reverting to the principle of nomination; for that was the course recommended by the hon. and gallant Member for Calne? The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War had said that Sandhurst was to be as open to public competition as Woolwich. But was everybody to be allowed, as a matter of right, to compete there? [General PEEL answered in the affirmative.] He was glad to hear it; hut even so, the system was still objectionable. It was objectionable because it would, practically, exclude all the students of the great public schools and the Universities—because this would be the inevitable effect of two of the conditions imposed—first, that the age of the candidates must be between sixteen and eighteen years; and, next, that they must undergo two years of preliminary education at Sandhurst. These restrictions would deprive the two great scientific branches of the army of what it was most important that they should possess—namely, that liberal and enlarged education which our public schools and universities alone supplied. Therefore, although the admission to Sandhurst might be a matter of right, the change would be attended with prejudicial results to the army, to the scientific services, and to the public generally, by excluding from competition persons who had been trained at the great seats of learning and at public schools. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take the sense of the House upon his Motion.


thought nothing could be more unjust than to assert that the steps lately taken by the Secretary at War and the Commander in Chief had been retrogressive, for in his opinion their conduct had been most creditable to them, for the Commander in Chief had entirely given up all the patronage of first commissions. He agreed, however, with the hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that they might give up the system of nomination without obtaining the full advantage of competition. Under the new system established by Lord Panmure, men who had not been through the theoretical class were admitted to the practical class at Woolwich. [General PEEL: Not latterly.] Well, that was the case during the war. A few years ago he had the honour of laying before the House a plan for the education of officers, and he proposed that Sandhurst should be enlarged, that the great mass of officers should be required to pass through that establishment, and that the age should be raised to 16 or 17 years, so that young men who had been educated at the public schools might enter there afterwards. He also proposed that young men who had passed through the first stages at Sandhurst should be allowed to compete for the practical class at Woolwich. His object was to keep open competition against Sandhurst. His principle was, that they would not have boys up to the mark unless there was competition between them in the schools in which they were educated, and also that they would not have professors or schools up to the mark unless there was competition between the schools. He thought there was great danger that Sandhurst would become a monopoly. It should be remembered that Sandhurst had the public purse to fall back upon, and thus could afford a better education than schools that had not that advantage. The system of payment, too, was peculiar. Civilians paid a large sum; general officers paid less; other field officers paid a lower amount; subaltern officers paid still less, and there was a class of, he believed, twenty orphans of officers who received a gratuitous education. That last class had been introduced at the instance of a gallant Officer then present, and he (Mr. S. Herbert) as Secretary at War at the time, bad done his best to resist it. The gallant Officer was undoubtedly actuated by most amiable motives, but be (Mr. S. Herbert) thought this was a peculiar species of sentiment which was unjustifiable. He doubted whether it was really an act of kindness to an orphan to place him in a profession like the army, which was undoubtedly expensive, and in which, except during war, advancement was very slow. He thought it also objectionable that civilians should be required to pay a large sum for the education of their sons, and should thus practically bear a portion of the cost of educating persons in whose advancement they could not have the slightest interest. He maintained that the charges at such an establishment should be regulated by the actual cost of the education, and he held that they had no right to offer an education for less than the actual cost, and to throw the difference upon the public purse, for by so doing they would destroy all the establishments that should compete with Sandhurst. With regard to the question now before the House, it could not be denied that the system of examination had been put back. The original plan was, that whenever there were examinations for the practical class at Woolwich, boys who were not educated at Sandhurst should be allowed to compete, and thus they would have a wider area and the chance of obtaining better men; but if the competition was confined to boys educated at Sandhurst, the area from which candidstes were drawn would be greatly circumscribed. With regard to patronage, nothing could be more liberal than the arrangements in that respect. The system of nomination was abandoned, but the system of competition seemed to him to have been pushed back to too early an ago, when it is really useless. You want competition to test ability after not before education is given. Now the result would be that no one would enter into competition at Woolwich but boys from Sandhurst, and there would be no variety of education. He understood his right hon. and gallant Friend to say that the present system would go on for two years. [General PEEL: For two examinations.] Well, there was time to consider what ultimate arrangement should be adopted, and he hoped the subject would receive the careful consideration of his right hon. and gallant Friend. They bad had Commissions upon Commissions which had accumulated an immense mass of valuable information on this question, and he would suggest to his right hon. Friend that instead of instituting any fresh inquiry, he should bring to bear upon it his own good common sense, and he would arrive at a much more speedy and satisfactory conclusion than was likely to result from the investigation of a Commission. He (Mr. S. Herbert) was satisfied that if competition in the practical class was to be confined to Sandhurst they would give that school a monopoly which would lower its character by destroying the spirit of emulation that competition with other establishments must create.


(who spoke amid continued cries for a division) urged the House to agree to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, and to leave the matter in the hands of the hon. and gallant General the Minister for War.


said, it was unjust to compel men of reduced means to send their sons to Sandhurst, when they might obtain at other schools, and at a considerably lower rate, just as good an education, and one which would qualify them just as well for military appointments. Such a system would in the end prevent many young men from entering the army who would otherwise do so. He was a member of a University which took much interest in this subject, and he must say, looking to the success which attended the system, they were bound to inquire whether any reason existed for making a change. He would give his cordial support to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman.


hoped the right hon. and gallant Secretary for War would not oppose the Motion, but would, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) had suggested, exercise his own good sense and military experience on the subject, and then he would probably be inclined to take the view embodied in the Resolution. It was usual sometimes to depreciate the knowledge and ability of English officers. Now, he (Lord V. Tempest) had served for a short time in foreign armies, and the result of his experience was that English officers, as a body, were quite as well educated as those of any other nation. He would, however, suggest that so extreme a test as that now adopted should not be applied in the case of officers of the line. It was not necessary that these officers should be such wonderfully clever men; they did not require these special attainments; all that was wanted for the line was a good working efficient officer, possessing the education common to English gentlemen; and a competitive examination, which exacted other acquirements, would often deter good men from running the gauntlet. As to Staff, Engineer, and Artillery officers there could not be too high a test, and this was carried out by the system of public competition at Woolwich.


said, he wished to appeal to the right hon. Member for Limerick. His Motion was for an Address to the Queen, requesting her not to suffer any alteration to be made in the present system of education. Now, the terms of this Motion would prevent any improvement in the system. Moreover, it was not very clear what the present system was. From the statements of the Secretary for War he understood that Lord Panmure at the beginning of the war instituted open competition, that when the war ended he changed that system, and that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Peel) had, for two examinations, prevented the alteration proposed by Lord Panmure from coming into effect. What, then, was the actual state of things? Was it the last or the first proposal of Lord Panmure which was now existing? The House ought to be very careful what they did respecting this Motion. If they wished to retain the present state of things they ought to know what it was, and not to pass a Resolution preventing any improvement whatever.


suggested a slight alteration in the Resolution, which would, perhaps, meet the views of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Roebuck). Instead of praying that no alteration might be made "in the existing arrangements," he would have it read "in the principle of the existing arrangements." In reply to the hon. Gentleman's question, he might state that the system now in operation was the one introduced during the war, namely, the system of competitive examination.


said, that as far as he was able to follow the discussion, it turned upon two points. The one was, whether the system of competitive examination was to be continued? His right hon. and gal-ant Friend had explained, that that system was as much continued now as ever it was, and intended to be so continued. On that point, therefore, there could not be any longer any dispute. The other question was, whether the theoretical class of Woolwich was still to be open as a competitive class of examination in the same way as before? ["No, no!"] The idea was that there was some intention of doing away with the theoretical class—that was to say, to open it to a greater number of people than were at Sandhurst. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Monsell) said, that Sandhurst was to have a monopoly. In the examination of the practical class of Woolwich, his right hon. and gallant Friend had continued the principle they wanted for two examinations more. The whole of that which they wanted permanently was now done provisionally for two more examinations. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert) said that it was desirable to continue the principle of this system. The principle had been continued to two more examinations. His right hon. and gallant Friend had no desire to alter the principle they were contending for. He submitted that these views would be much better carried out by leaving the matter in the hands of the Secretary for War, than by moving any specific Resolution on the matter ["No, no!"] Did they wish to determine the question without weighing all the difficulties that surrounded it. He had no doubt but that if the question were left in the hands of his right hon. and gallant Friend, the wishes of the House would be practically carried out.


thought it was a matter of the utmost necessity that the question should be at once settled one way or the other. It was one involving the principle whether Sandhurst was to have a monopoly for those examinations.


said, it was not intended to alter the principle on which those examinations were carried on. He thought that the effect of the Amendment would be to exclude Sandhurst practically.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided; Ayes 177; Noes 217: Majority 40.

List of the AYES.
Adams, W. H. Baring, T.
Adderley, rt. hon. C. B. Bernard, T. T.
Agar-Ellis, hn. L. G. F. Bathurst, A. A.
Alexander, J. Beach, W. W. B.
Antrobus, E. Bective, Earl of
Bailey, C. Beecroft, G. S.
Baillie, H. J. Bennet, P.
Bentinck, G. W. P. Hodgson, W. N.
Beresford, rt. hon. W. Holford, R. S.
Blackburn, P. Hopwood, J. T.
Boldero, Col. Hornby, W. H.
Bovill, W. Horsfall, T, B,
Bramley-Moore, J. Hutt, W.
Bramston, T. W. Ingestre, Viscount
Bridges, Sir B. W. Inglis, J.
Bruce, Major C. Johnstone, hon. H. B.
Bruen, H. Kendall, N.
Bunbury, W. B. M'C. Ker, R.
Cairns, Sir H. M'C. Kerrison, Sir E. C.
Carnac, Sir J. R. King. J. K.
Cartwright, H. Kingscote, R. N. F.
Cayley, E. S. Knatchbull, W. F.
Charlesworth, J. C. D. Knight, F. W.
Child, S. Knightley, R.
Christy, S. Knox, Col.
Clive, hon. R. W. Langton, W. G.
Close, M. C. Laurie, J.
Cobbold, J. C. Legh, G. C.
Codrington, Sir W. Lennox, Lord A. F.
Cole, hon. H. A. Lennox, Lord H. G.
Conolly, T. Liddell, hon. H. G.
Corry, rt. hon. H. L. Lovaine, Lord
Cross, R. A. Lyall, G.
Cubitt, Mr. Alderman Lygon, hon. F.
Curzon, Visct. Lytton, Sir G. E. L. B.
Dalkeith, Earl of Macartney, G.
Damer, L. D. M'Clintock, J.
Deedes, W. Malins, R.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B. Manners, Lord J.
Dobbs, W. C. March, Earl of
Dod, J. W. Maxwell, hon. Col.
Du Cane, C. Miles, W.
East, Sir J. B. Miller, S. B.
Edwards, H, Mills, A.
Egerton, Sir P. G. Milnes, R. M.
Egerton, W. T. Montgomery, H. L.
Elphinstone, Sir J. Montgomery, Sir G.
Elton, Sir A. H. Morgan, O.
Estcourt, rt. hon. T. H. Mowbray, rt. hon J. R.
Farnham, E. B. Naas, Lord
Farquhar Sir M. Neeld, J.
Fellowes, E. Newark, Viscount
FitzGerald, W. R. S. Newport, Visct.
FitzRoy, rt. hon. H. Nisbet, R. P.
Forde, Col. Noel, hon. G. J.
Forester, rt. hon. Col. North, Col.
Forster, Sir G. Packe, C. W.
Fraser, Sir W. A. Pakington, rt. hn. Sir J.
Gallwey, Sir W. P. Palk, L.
Galway, Viscount Paull, H.
Gard, R. S. Peel, rt. hon. Gen.
Gaskell, J. M. Repton, G. W. J.
Gavin, Major Robertson, P. F.
Gilpin, C. Rust, J.
Gladstone, rt. hon. W. Sclater-Booth, G.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Scott, hon. F.
Greaves, E. Scott, Major
Greenall, G. Seymer, H. K.
Gray, Captain Sibthorp, Major
Hamilton, Lord C. Smith, Sir F.
Hamilton, G. A. Smollett, A.
Hardy, G. Somerset, Col.
Hartington, Marq. of Spooner, R.
Hay, Lord J. Stanhope, J. B.
Hayes, Sir E. Stanley, Lord
Headlam, T. E. Stephenson, R.
Heathcote, Sir W. Stirling, W.
Henley, rt. hon. J. W. Sturt, H. G.
Herbert, rt. hon. S. Taylor, S. W.
Hill, hon. R. C. Vansittart, G. H.
Vansittart, W. Wortley, Major S.
Verner, Sir W. Wyndham, Gen.
Walcott, Adm. Wynn, Col.
Walpole, rt. hon. S. H. Wynn, Sir W. W.
Warren, S. Wynne, rt. hon. J. A.
Welby, W. E. Yorke, hon. E. T.
Whiteside, rt. hon. J.
Whitmore, H. TELLERS.
Willoughby, Sir H. Joliffe, Sir W.
Wilson, A. Taylor, Col.
Woodd, B. T.
List of the NOES.
Adeane, H. J. Duff, Major L. D. G.
Akroyd, E. Ennis, J.
Alcock, T. Esmonde, J.
Ashley, Lord Evans, T. W.
Atherton, W. Ewart, J. C.
Ayrton, A. S. Fagan, W.
Bagwell, J. Finlay, A. S.
Baines, Rt. Hon. M. T. FitzGerald, rt. hn J. D.
Barnard, T. Foley, J. H.
Bass, M. T. Foley, H. J. W.
Baxter, W. E. Forster, C.
Black, A. Foster, W. O.
Blake, J. Fortescue, hon. F. D.
Bonham-Carter, J. Fortescue, C. S.
Bouverie, rt. hon. E. P. Fox, W. J.
Bouverie, hon. P. P. Freestun, Colonel
Bowyer, G. Garnett, W. J.
Brand, hon. B. W. Gibson, Rt. hon. T. M.
Briscoe, J. I. Gifford, Earl of
Brocklehurst, J. Glyn, G. G.
Browne, W. Goderich, Viscount
Bruce, H. A. Greene, J.
Buchanan, W. Greenwood, J.
Buckley, General Gregory, W. H.
Buller, J. W. Gregson, S.
Burghley, Lord Grenfell, C. W.
Bury, Visct. Griffith, C. D.
Butt, I. Grogan, E.
Buxton, C. Gurdon, B.
Buxton, Sir E. Gurney, S.
Byng, Hon. G. Hall, rt. hon. Sir B.
Caird, J. Hamilton, J. A.
Calcraft, J. H. Hamilton, Capt.
Calcutt, F. M. Hanbury, R.
Campbell, R. J. R. Handley, J.
Cardwell, rt. hon. E. Hankey, T.
Cavendish, hon. W. Hanmer, Sir J.
Cholmeley, Sir M. J. Hardcastle, J. A.
Clark, J. J. Harris, J. D.
Clay, J. Hassard, M.
Clinton, Lord R. Hatchell, J.
Clive, G. Hayter, rt. hn. Sir W. G.
Cobbett, J. M. Hodgson, K. D.
Cogan, W. H. F. Horsman, rt. hon. E.
Coningham, W. Howard, Lord E.
Conynham, Lord F. Ingham, R.
Corbally, M. E. Jackson, W.
Cowan, C. Jervoise, Sir J. C,
Cox, W. Kershaw, J.
Craufurd, E. H. J. King, hon. P. J. L.
Crawford, R. W. Kirk, W.
Dalglish, R. Kinglake, A. W.
Davey, R. Kinglake, J. A.
Deasy, R. Kinnaird, hon. A. F.
Denison, hon. W. H. F. Kirk, J. K.
De Vere, S. E. Knatchbull-Hugessen, E
Devereux, J. T. Langston, J. H.
Dillwyn, L. L. Langton, H. G.
Duff, M. E. G. Lefroy, A.
Lincoln, Earl of Seymour, H. D.
Locke, J. Shelley, Sir J. V.
Locke, Jno. Smith, J. A.
Lowe, rt. hon. R. Smith, A.
Macarthy, A. Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.
M'Cann, J. Stafford, Marquess of
MacEvoy, Edward Stapleton, J.
Mackie, J. Steel, J.
Maâckinnon, W. A. Stuart, Lord J.
Maguire, J. F. Stuart, Col.
Mangles, R. D. Sturt, N.
Mangles, C. E. Sullivan, M.
Martin, C. W. Sykes, Col. W. H.
Martin, P. W. Talbot, C. R. M.
Mellor, J. Tancred, H. W.
Mills, T. Tempest, Lord A. V.
Moffatt, G. Thompson, General
Moncreiff, rt. hon. J. Tite, W.
Morris, D. Tollemache, hon. F. J.
Napier, Sir C. Tomline, G.
Nicoll, D. Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Norreys, Sir D. J. Trueman, C.
O'Brien, P. Turner, J. A.
O'Connell, Capt. D. Vance, J.
O'Donoghoe, The Vane, Lord H.
Ogilvy, Sir J. Vivian, H. H.
Osborne, R. Waldron, L.
Paget, C. Warre, J. A.
Paget, Lord A. Watkins, Col. L.
Paget, Lord C. Weguelin, T. M.
Paxton, Sir J. Western, S.
Perry, Sir T. E. Westhead, J. P. B.
Philips, R. N. Whatman, J.
Pilkington, J. Whitbread, S.
Pinney, Colonel White, J.
Price, W. P. Wickham, H. W.
Pritchard, J. Willcox, B. M'G.
Puller, C. W. Williams, W.
Ramsay, Sir A. Williams, Sir W. F.
Rawlinson, Sir H. C. Willyams, E. W. B.
Rebow, J. G. Wilson, J.
Ricardo, O. Winnington, Sir T. E.
Richardson, J. Wise, J. A.
Ridley, G. Wood, W.
Roebuck, J. A. Woods, H.
Roupell, W. Wyld, J.
Russell, Lord J. Young, A. W.
Russell, H.
Russell, A. TELLERS.
Russell, F. W. Monsell, rt. hon. W.
Schneider, H. W. Vivian, J. C.
Scholefield, W.

Words added. Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Resolved,That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that no alteration may be made in the principle of the existing arrangements which regulate the admission to Cadetships in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers.