THE CONVICT SYSTEM—TRANSPORTATION.

HC Deb 08 March 1849 vol 103 cc384-424

VISCOUNT MAHON

rose to call the attention of the House to the instructions issued in the years 1846, 1847, and 1848, with respect to the transportation and discipline of convicts. The noble Lord commenced by observing, that it was evident, from the papers laid upon the table of the House, that the ground between him and hon. Gentlemen opposite had been much narrowed. The noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies had again and again declared that transportation should be disused, and that we ought to provide for our convicts by the use of hulks, and by the construction of penitentiaries at home. That was the ground which the noble Earl in former years, as a Member of this House, had been accustomed to assume. Now he (Lord Mahon) certainly could not consider it a matter of blame against the noble Earl, that he had, in dealing with a most intricate and delicate subject, been led greatly to modify his views. But what he did complain of was this—that Earl Grey had cast aside some valuable recommendations of his predecessors, and had issued instructions which seemed to be liable to the imputation that they had been decided upon with imprudence and precipitation. In the statement which he should make in support of these charges, he would show that Earl Grey had, since his accession to office—nay, in the short space of twenty months—changed his views on this subject no less than five times. He (Lord Mahon) now trusted that he would be able to elicit from Her Majesty's Government some distinct statement of their present proceedings and intentions upon this question. The main principle, compared to which other points were but matters of detail—the main principle for which he contended was—that criminals, when the term of their punishment had passed, should not be thrown again upon the scene of their former crimes. Now, the difficulties of the whole subject had been greatly increased by two orders which had been issued by the noble Lord, now the Prime Minister, when Secretary for the Colonies. He had issued one order for the sudden abolition of assignment in the Australian colonies; and another for the immediate abolition of transportation, so far as New South Wales was concerned. Both these orders took effect in 1840, and both were attended with evil consequences; at the same time, he must candidly state the circumstances under which the noble Lord had acted. The Transportation Committee had just made their report; and the evidence collected by it had not been contradicted as it now was by fuller and more correct testimony from the colonies. The noble Lord had acted in conformity with the general opinion entertained at the time; he had a state of imperfect and one-sided information to excuse him; but nevertheless the effects of his measures were most disastrous. He (Lord Mahon) would first allude to the abolition of transportation to New South Wales. What had been the immediate effect of that measure? There was, in the first place, a rapid accumulation of convicts in the hulks in this country—an accumulation which was productive of much evil, and was loudly and justly complained of at the time. At that period, namely, in the month of March, 1841, he moved a resolution in the House against any increase in the number of prisoners at the hulks; and so strong was the feeling with respect to the matter of that resolution, that, although it was strongly opposed by the Government, it was affirmed by the House. A few months after that vote, it happened that the Government of that day went out, and its place was taken by the Administration in which Lord Stanley was Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) was the Home Secretary. In the ensuing year, that is, early in 1842, he (Lord Mahon) addressed a question to the right hon. Baronet as to how far he would consent to be bound by the resolution which had been moved in the previous March. Now, the right hon. Baronet had two courses open to him: if he disagreed with that resolution, he could ask the House to rescind it; but if he concurred in it, he would be bound to act upon it. The right hon. Baronet answered that he would abide by the decision of the House; and, accordingly, under that Administration, the number of convicts at the hulks was not increased. But another evil was the result—the number of convicts in Van Diemen's Land was unduly increased. Under the system which prevailed until the year 1840, not less than 3,000 or 4,000 convicts were divided between New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land every year. By the order of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), the entire number were confined to Van Diemen's Land alone. That was more than that colony could bear. In now reverting to this part of the subject, he felt bound to consider how this system had been administered in the colonies at the time. It was a subject which, he confessed, he approached with pain and dislike; but when a system was arraigned, it was necessary to inquire whether the fault was in the system or in those who administered it. Lord Stanley appointed Major Childs as Governor of Norfolk Island. In making that appointment, the noble Lord had been actuated neither by political nor private motives. Major Childs, he believed, had been a resident at Devonport, and a consistent supporter of the Members for that borough—Members who opposed the Government to which Lord Stanley belonged. No doubt, also, that Lord Stanley was furnished with sufficient testimonials of Major Childs' abilities for the post. But the results of that appointment were unfortunate, a strong case having been made out against Major Childs for his share in the government of the colony. After the outbreak which had occurred in the island, early in 1846, Mr. Stewart was despatched from Van Diemen's Land to inquire into the causes of it. He found upon investigation that the system of confinement was one of the worst description; that convicts of the most hardened character were confined together in dark dormitories without partitions, and that they were confined fourteen hours out of the twenty-four, in order that the persons connected with the establishment might have their evenings to themselves. He (Lord Mahon) would not shock the feelings of the House by referring to the horrors which resulted from this system. Mr. Hampton, who was sent to the island in 1848, gave some further painful information as to the former state of the prisons, adding that the more desperate ruffians were permitted to seize the rations of the weaker ones, and that the conditions upon which those weaker prisoners were fed, were frequently that they should do the bidding of the rest. So much for Norfolk Island. As to Van Diemen's Land, the first step which Lord Stanley took was to offer the governorship of that colony to a gentleman, then and now a Member of that House, perfectly well qualified for the post, but who, however, on account of illness in his family, could not accept it. Afterwards Sir Eardley Wilmot had been appointed, from whom, on account of his long chairmanship of quarter-sessions, much had reasonably been expected. He did not wish to speak harshly of any one—far less of any one deceased; and the House was perfectly aware that most painful discussions had already taken place in that House with respect to Sir Eardley's policy. He (Lord Mahon) would only state now that those who had read the recent despatches of Sir William Denison must have been struck by his ability and aptitude for business, and must also have been struck at the great contrast they presented to those of his immediate predecessor. The failures in the colonial administration at that time were not owing mainly to the system, but were the result of errors in those who administered the system. By the rule drawn up by the present Prime Minister, all the convicts were at that time sent either to Van Diemen's Land or to Norfolk Island. When the stream of colonisation was divided, and extended also to New South Wales, it was only sufficient, as it were, to fertilise the land; but the concentration of that amount of criminals into one colony made it a loath- some sink of all pestilence and infection. Van Diemen's Land, suffering from this importation, complained to this country, and asked for a remedy. The complaints of the colonists reached this country early in the spring of 1846. At that time the office of Secretary for the Colonies was filled by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), and he, in conjunction with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, came to the conclusion that it was necessary to suspend the tide of transportation to Van Diemen's Land for two years. That transportation was accordingly checked. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford accompanied this check by another measure. Lord Stanley had, some time before, sanctioned the establishment of an additional colony in North Australia, for the reception of convicts; and the right hen. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford was prepared to carry out the plan. He (Lord Mahon) had now brought these affairs up to the time at which Earl Grey became Colonial Secretary; and, as he had said, he was prepared to show that Earl Grey, between November, 1846, and June, 1848, had announced five distinct changes in his views with respect to this branch of colonial administration. On the 15th November the noble Earl wrote to Sir Charles Fitzroy, countermanding the instructions given by Lord Stanley, and sanctioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford. By one stroke of his pen he abolished the entire plan for the establishment of this additional colony. But was this the only false step which he made at that time? Earl Grey, on the 5th of February, 1847, wrote to Sir W. Denison— I have to inform you, that it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government that transportation to Van Diemen's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of two years, for which it has been already decided it shall be discontinued. Now, was it right, by a decision of this kind, for Earl Grey to fetter the discretion of a successor in his office? But he thought he could show that the noble Earl was himself bound and fettered in the present change of his views by the determination which he had expressed to Sir Charles Fitzroy. On March 5, 1847, he found Earl Grey stating in the House of Lords, that— The change intended was of no less extent than a virtual abolition of the system of transportation which had for so many years prevailed under different regulations and modifications as to the mode of punishment. A little further on, in the same speech, he found the noble Earl adding— I have already said, that the change which Government has considered ought to be introduced extends to no less than a virtual abolition of transportation; because, when I speak of transportation, I do not include the punishment of offenders at Gibraltar or Bermuda. Now, let it be remembered, those were words which were not addressed to the House of Lords alone. They were read in the colonies, they were read in Van Diemen's Land, and were interpreted into a pledge and promise that the system should be discontinued. That view of the case was further confirmed by a Minute, dated January 20, 1847, from which it appeared that the convicts were not to be sent out on any account collectively, but individually—that in such individual cases facilities to emigrate to other countries besides the late penal settlements were to be afforded. The intention then was to refrain hereafter from sending them out in one mass to the Australian colonies; and this project accorded well with what Earl Grey had so imprudently promised previously in his despatch to Sir William Denison. Now, that was the first phase of Earl Grey's opinions on the subject. On the 3rd of June, 1847, they arrived at the second phase. Then suddenly, in the midst of a debate in this House, it was announced by the Home Secretary that a most important change had taken place in their intentions, that the removals from this country would not be collective, but individual, and that such colonisation would be not to any other countries, but, as before, to the Australian colonies. Now, how did that decision accord with the previous instructions given to Sir William Denison? The third phase in the noble Earl's opinions would be seen in a despatch sent to Sir W. Denison, dated April 27, 1848, in which his Lordship announced to Sir W. Denison, that the Government considered it necessary that the additions to the population of Van Diemen's Land should not entirely, or even principally, consist of those tainted with crime, and that he was persuaded a pecuniary mulct was due on account of the number of convicts we sent to the colony. The noble Earl spoke of the desire of the Government to aid in the importation of free emigrants—to neutralise the effect of the influx of convicts; and he added that Parliament would be asked for funds for the purpose of assisting free emigrants to Van Diemen's Land. Here was the third phase. On reading this despatch, which was laid before Parliament, he (Lord Mahon) publicly asked the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. Hawes), what amount of money Earl Grey intended to propose for these emigrants? He said 10,000l. Now came the fourth phase in the noble Earl's opinions, which would be found the most surprising of all. About a month afterwards, Earl Grey departed from his own principle of compensation, stating that he had come to the conclusion that only a portion of the 10,000l. should go to Van Diemen's Land, and that the remainder should go towards assisting in emigration to other colonies; such colonies, having received no convicts, and not being entitled to compensation. This alteration in the views of Earl Grey, appeared from a speech of the hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies, in a debate upon a Motion of the noble Lord the Member for Bath (Lord Ashley). It was on the 6th of June, 1848. That noble Lord (Lord Ashley), speaking, as usual, with great pathos and power, and with the most benevolent views, had asked that public money should be devoted to the purposes of juvenile emigration; and the hon. Under Secretary said that a portion of the Van Diemen's Land fund would be so devoted. At the time while he (Lord Mahon) was speaking on that Motion, the hon. Under Secretary had got up and said across the table that he had not spoken of emigration "to the Australian colonies, but chiefly to the Australian colonies;" and the same hon. Gentleman, afterwards rising "to explain," declared that upon a former occasion he had not meant to confine his answer to Van Diemen's Land, but that the Government meant to apply the 10,000l. for the purposes of emigration to other colonies also, and not Van Diemen's Land alone. Why, the ink of the despatch of the 27th of April was then scarcely dry. A fifth phase in the noble Earl's opinions now broke upon the view. Not long after the statement of his Under Secretary, Earl Grey found fault with his own last decision, and reverted to his first; he repented him of his repentance; and declared that the 10,000l. would not be devoted to the purposes of emigration to Australia generally, but only to van Diemen's Land. Thus did the noble Earl happily accomplish the fifth phase, or change, in his opinions. Now, in making these references, he (Lord Mahon) desired to be understood that it was not in the way of taunt; but he was of opinion that it was most impolitic and perilous thus to make pledges to the colonists which were not fulfilled. From the last collection of papers laid upon the table of the House, it would subsequently also appear that great changes had been wrought in the opinions of Earl Grey on these subjects. Take the case of Norfolk Island, with respect to which Earl Grey's opinions had gone round to all the points of the compass. At first the noble Earl was of opinion that Norfolk Island was the most proper place that could be selected for a penal colony. His first expressed opinion was, with respect to punishment of convicts abroad—expressed so far back as 1838 while Secretary at War—"I think that Norfolk Island is the best situation yet suggested;" afterwards he declared that, owing to its distance, 1,000 miles from the nearest land, it was a most unfit place; that no place was so bad, and that all its establishments should be instantly abandoned. But the noble Earl appeared to hold now an intermediate opinion on the subject, and to be prepared to retain the settlement with a reduced number of convicts, adopting the recommendation of Sir W. Denison, that, now the number of convicts was limited, it was on many accounts a desirable and useful penal settlement. But who had urged the introduction of a larger number of convicts in that island? Earl Grey himself, who had said in 1838 that "immediate orders ought to be sent to Norfolk Island to prepare for an increased number of convicts." Now, he could not recognise in the transactions to which he had alluded, any symptoms of an uniform and consistent plan of action for reformation in our penal system, or for any improvement in the condition of the convicts. He felt difficulty in alluding to the present state of the question, because the intentions of the Government were by no means clearly set forth in the papers laid before Parliament. The hon. Member for Montrose, and others, had truly stated that the policy of the Government was not intelligible; and one of his (Lord Mahon's) motives in bringing forward the present Motion was to elicit from the Government their intentions with respect to these important affairs. With respect to the principle which he thought should govern Par- liament in legislating on this subject, he was decidedly of opinion that it was unwise to allow the convict, after the expiration of his term of punishment, to return to the scene of his former crimes. Agree on the principle in this respect, and all the rest was mere matter of detail. The ill effects of convicts returning to the scene of their crimes were not greater to the mother country than to themselves. The governor of Millbank Penitentiary, a few years ago, had given very important testimony on this point, showing that a person who had once been tainted with crime, and who had suffered the penalty of that crime, was, however sincerely reformed in heart, yet a ruined man in the town or district in which the offence was committed. Such were the obstacles to a man's retrieving himself in the country in which he committed his crimes—so great was the difficulty of obtaining honest employment and of shunning the evil associations of earlier days—that it was not an unusual occurrence for a man to return again to the governor of the prison, and implore him for the love of God to take him back again to the walls of the dungeon where he had previously been confined, rather than let him go free and he driven once more into sin and shame; but the governor, however willing he might be, had no power to comply with any request of that kind. This was the evil with regard to the convict himself. With regard to the evils inflicted on the country, could it need many words to prove that the results must be most injurious to England herself, if large masses of persons from her penitentiaries and penal establishments were thrown back upon her soil? His own opinions on this subject had derived fresh strength from considering what had passed in France last year. There were now persons in this country, with some of whom he believed the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department was well acquainted, who, watching closely the events which had occurred in France in February, 1848, had stated to him (Lord Mahon) that they deemed one of the foremost causes of the late events in Paris to be the accumulation of convicts from the bagnes at Toulon and Brest. Those men, debarred from honest industry, and resting under a brand, were of course in the van of disaffection in France. The gentlemen to whom he referred had expressed in the strongest terms their conviction that England owed much of her security to the fact that re- leased criminals were not let loose upon the mother country. He was not now adverting to the case of special pardons; but, speaking generally, he thought that nothing could be more dangerous than to suffer prisoners, after the expiration of their term of imprisonment, to return to the sphere of their former crimes. With respect to the comparative advantages of imprisonment at home previous to the transportation, or imprisonment in the colony after the transportation, he admitted that imprisonment at home was under better superintendence; that the country had the benefit of convict labour in the home prisons; and that by keeping convicts at home, until after they had gone through a reformatory process and course of moral discipline, you did not expose them so early or so unprepared to the contaminating influences of the passage out. But there were those features in the question which hardly allowed the House to consider this question of imprisonment whether to be at home or abroad as an abstract proposition. He alluded to the vast accumulation of prisoners in the prisons in England and Ireland, and the evils which resulted from that accumulation. No doubt the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department had received many representations on this subject. The hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. H. Herbert) had the other evening made some significant remarks on the subject; and it was only yesterday that a magistrate of Yorkshire, a gentleman distinguished in the commission of the peace, had informed him (Lord Mahon) that some of the gaols in that part of the country were so choked and filled that magistrates were prevented from committing persons to prison who deserved that punishment. He wished the House to recollect that improvement in prison discipline could not under present circumstances be effected; for the moment they filled the gaols beyond what they were capable of accommodating, that moment they were compelled to suspend all their reformatory projects, and they were obliged to revert to the state in which they had been before. On the whole of this question, then—treating this point concerning the English prisons more briefly than he could have wished—he would say that the preliminary punishment must, in the present state of the law, be left to the descretion and judgment of Her Majesty's Government, but that they were bound not to lose sight of the considerations he had mentioned, and that they were also bound to provide by some means or other that accumulations should not take place in prisons in such a manner and to such an extent as should destroy the ends of justice, and neutralise those reformatory plans of discipline which had been so justly approved and applauded throughout the country. He would now come to some practical suggestions connected with this subject. The first that occurred to his mind were those that had been mentioned in several recent publications by Captain Maconochie, who had zealously devoted his time and abilities to the subject of the reformation of convicts. Although Captain Maconochie had brought forward several suggestions of great practical utility and value, and although he had a desire to speak with every possible respect of that gentleman, still he did not think he deserved that unlimited and indiscriminate confidence which he received from many persons who pressed forward his recommendations as of paramount value. Nobody in this House surely could, for instance, concur in the disproportionate importance which Captain Maconochie attached to teaching the convicts music, which Captain Maconochie said he believed to be eminently social, exercising an elevating and ennobling influence over the prisoners, and keeping up a kindly sentiment amongst them. In pursuance of these views, and at the urgent request, as it was stated, of Captain Maconochie, Sir George Gipps, in a despatch which he had sent home in the year 1840, stated that he had been induced to expend double the amount of money which he expended upon books of instruction for the convicts in the purchase of musical instruments for them. Now, he (Lord Mahon) was prepared to find many varieties of opinion as to convict discipline; but he certainly should be surprised if he were to see any single Member of that House stand up and say that he thought it desirable in the management of criminals to spend twice as much on harps and fiddles as on books. Then, as to the suggestions which he himself had to offer, the first related to the colony of North Australia, which had been sanctioned by Lord Stanley, but which was now abandoned, after the expenditure—as appeared from the returns he had moved for last year—of no less a sum than 15,402l., incurred in its settlement. Now, he would venture to submit for the consideration of the Colonial Office, whether, late though it was, great advantage would not result from resuming Lord Stanley's plan, and from constituting the convicts the pioneers of free emigration in that region. In the petition from Van Diemen's Land, last year, among the grievances enumerated, the abandonment of the project which Lord Stanley had formed, and which Mr. Secretary Gladstone was preparing to carry into effect, constituted one of the grounds of complaint. With regard to New South Wales, when the noble Lord the present Prime Minister abolished the system of transportation there, the colonists of New South Wales petitioned against such a step. This petition was agreed upon at a public meeting, and was presented to this House on the 4th of May, 1840, by the late Mr. Charles Buller, who was certainty no mean authority upon those questions. The petition stated— That in the opinion of the petitioners transportation had proved an admirable means of punishment, as well as for the moral reformation of the convicts; and further, that whilst the transportation of prisoners relieved the pressure of competition in the labour market of the mother country, aggravated as it was by the labour of the convicts in the Penitentiary competing with the industry of the poor but honest classes in England, it was at the same time a great advantage to the colony, and added to the demand for labour at home by increased consumption of English manufactures, the raw materials for which were also raised in the colony almost entirely by convict labour. It was, however, imagined by the Home authorities, that, so far as the New South Wales colonies were concerned, the want of labourers would soon be remedied by free emigration. The report of Mr. Merewether, dated May 14, 1842, stated, that in the year preceding, no less than 19,523 free emigrants had arrived, at the expense to the colony of 327,106; and it appeared that in a subsequent year the number amounted to 23,200. No wonder Lord Stanley, in a despatch dated February 8, 1842, said— He was strongly inclined to believe that the supply of labour furnished will have been at least equal to the demand, or, at all events, to such a demand as would realise the fair expectations of the emigrants. Yet the cry arose, that the supply was insufficient. In a report of the Committee of Immigration at Sydney, dated August 25, 1842, and signed by the Bishop of Australia, as Chairman, it was stated, that— During the last twelve months, immigration has been carried on to an unprecedented extent. Nevertheless, those now arrivals, with exceptions too few to affect the main position, have rapidly found engagements, at wages which, though somewhat reduced, are still sufficiently liberal to satisfy any reasonable expectations. But it appears most obvious, that there exists a continued necessity for the introduction of immigrants. The Committee proceeded to say, they were— most strongly persuaded, that unless measures be taken for the resumption of emigration not later than the spring and summer of next year, the want of labour will be felt as injuriously here as ever, and wages will rise to their former exorbitant rate. At the present time the necessity of more hands for labour is represented on high authority as more urgent than ever. The Rev. Bragley Naylor wrote as follows to the Legislative Council of New South Wales in June, 1847:— We want labour for other reasons. The present insufficient supply is tending to produce a total disruption of society. The capitalist and the employer are the insulted drudges of the persons they are, nevertheless, forced at any rate to employ; whilst the exorbitant wages paid lead to idleness and dissipation; and there is no present help for it. A settler must give 30l. or 36l. a year for a shepherd, or his flocks will be destroyed. He must make his election between the waste of his wheat, or submit to pay 20s. an acre for reaping it. I know that magnificent crops have rotted on the ground during the present season for want of timely assistance, or because the owners were unable or unwilling to pay the absurd amount demanded for getting them in. Now, he (Lord Mahon) would not say, that with regard to the transportation of convicts, the supply of labour which it would afford to the colonies was anything like the first consideration that ought to weigh with a Minister. But he did say, that if the reformation of the convict could be steadily wrought out in the colonies, then the relief of colonies, as regards the supply of labour, although but a subordinate consideration, was still one that ought not to be altogether forgotten. And he thought the documents he had read, showed that the expectation that free emigration would supply the place of convict labour, to the benefit of the colony, had not been realised, and that great distress was suffered in the colony from the want of labour. Under these circumstances. Earl Grey had commenced a negotiation for the restoration of the system to the colony. He (Lord Mahon) entirely approved of that step being attempted, provided it were carried on with a duo regard to the wishes and views of the Council in the colony; but he had this practical suggestion to offer upon this point—that it was of the highest importance, in order to secure the successful termination of that negotiation, that facilities should be afforded, and even, if necessary, a vote should be asked from Parliament, to promote free emigration. This was a point which the Colonial Office should press forward by every means in its power. To return to the pledge, most imprudently given by Earl Grey, that transportation should not be renewed to Van Diemen's Land; what had been the consequence of that step? In the papers last laid on the table, the colonists complained of the breach of faith committed by the Colonial Office, in not keeping its pledge. That there had been a breach of faith was shown from the words of their own officer. It was shown by Sir William Denison's despatch of the 20th of August, 1847. In this despatch Sir William acknowledged the receipt of a despatch of the 5th February, 1847, in which, as he says— I was informed, that it is not the intention of the Government that transportation to Van Diemen's Land shall be renewed at the expiration of two years. In this same despatch, Sir William Denison stated, that before he bad received the despatch of 5th February, 1847, he had sent home suggestions as to the mode of working out a system of transportation, had it been intended to continue it, most advantageously, both for the benefit of the mother country and of the South Australian colonies; but as the Government had now determined that transportation to that colony should cease, of course these suggestions would now fall to the ground. What possible defence could be offered for such a proceeding? Earl Grey had a perfect right to act as he thought best as a Colonial Minister; but he (Lord Mahon) had yet to learn what right a Minister had to give a pledge for a future time, involving a free discretion, which he ought to leave to his successor in office, and which it even appeared in his (Earl Grey's) own opinion it would be a most desirable and important discretion to be possessed by himself. Now, such being the state of things in Van Diemen's Land, he had one practical suggestion to offer with respect to the hasty manner in which the noble Lord now the Prime Minister had put an end to the system of convict assignments, He (Lord Mahon) did not believe that system had stood in need of total abolition so much as it did of reform; and it might be reintroduced with advantage, if it underwent amendment first. He would not express a positive opinion him- self, however, upon that subject; but he would quote the testimony of that excellent and estimable prelate the Bishop of Tasmania, with whom he had had several conferences upon this very subject, during his stay in England, a few years ago. On parting from him, that most estimable prelate summed up his opinion in words which it was impossible to repeat exactly, but of which the substance was— As a Christian prelate, my first wish would he, that the flock committed to my charge should be preserved as far as possible from any admixture of crime, or any chance of contamination by those who have been convicted. But if I am to look to transportation, and to the influx of convicts as a settled point, if I am told it is to remain as a part of the imperial policy of England, I should then say, that of all systems for Van Diemen's Land with which I have become acquainted from information or from reflection, the most promising, most effective, and most capable of being worked out, is an improvement of the system of assignment. Mr. Gibbon Wakefield, in that truly able and valuable work which he had lately published on colonisation, bore a striking testimony in favour of assignment. He said that there were farms in Van Diemen's Land, or, as he rather preferred to call it, Tasmania, the farming of which was not inferior to that of Norfolk and the Lothians. One of these farms he minutely described. He went over the gardens and orchards, the house, and house-buildings, the fences, and the live stock; all, he said, most excellent of their kind. On this single establishment (he added) by one master seventy labourers have been employed at the same time. They were nearly all convicts. By convict labour, and that alone, this fine establishment was founded and maintained. Nothing of the sort could have existed in the island if convicts had not been transmitted thither, and assigned upon their landing. This was Mr. Wakefield's testimony. Now his (Lord Mahon's) practical suggestion with regard to Van Diemen's Land, and also New South Wales, was merely this: If the negotiation respecting the convicts in New South Wales should be successful, to both those colonies conditional orders might be sent empowering the Governors of both, if no objections stood in the way, to make a trial of the system of assignment of convicts. With the conditions and specifications of these orders, he would not now trouble the House, further than to say that the experiment should be carried out first only upon a small scale; and afterwards, should it prove successful, the system might be extended. If, however, the experiment upon a small scale failed, it might, if expedient, again be abolished. He thought these conditional orders would tend to facilitate the negotiations with New South Wales, so far as the admission of convicts was concerned. There might have been other branches of the subject upon which he would have desired to speak—such as the important points of prison discipline, reformatory processes, and the dangerous accumulation of convicts in prison; but he could not longer trespass upon the indulgence and kindness of the House. He would conclude with a Motion for returns, to which, as he understood, no objection would be made. It might be asked why he did not bring forward a specific Motion, calling upon the House to affirm his views upon the matter. His answer was, that, in the first place, he must complain of the obscurity in the printed papers as to what the present intentions of the Government may be; and until those intentions were better developed, as he trusted they would be in the course of the discussion, it did not appear to him advisable to call upon the House to come to a vote upon any particular suggestion of his. He had no desire whatever to give a party tone to the debate; but if at any time he considered the explanations of the Government unsatisfactory, he, for one, would not shrink from the responsibility, so far as submitting any proposition to the House that would give effect to his opinions was concerned. The mistake into which all Colonial Ministers seemed to fall, was in aiming at a perfect system of convict management. Every system of convicts must be fraught with difficulties and objections; of the very best that could be desired, it could only in truth be said, Optimus ille est, qui minimis urgetur. Whilst they continued to have so vast an accumulation of criminals to deal with, it was impossible but that there should exist much evil to repress, and much suffering to endure. Still, in almost every neighbouring country, improvement was manifesting itself. France, which had so lately tolerated the semi-barbarous penal systems at Toulon and Brest, was now gladly supporting the enlightened reformatory establishment of Mettray. Let them hope that the work of improvement would steadily advance in our own country and elsewhere; but believing, as he did, that in this case, as in almost every other, the best security for continued improvement was to be found in the vigilant superin- tendence and control of Parliament, he should continue, so long as he had a seat in that House, to give his most earnest attention to this important question. And he would indulge the hope that, if even his suggestions should be nothing worth, they would yet, by the attention they would call to the subject, be the means of drawing from others suggestions—he would not say bettor intended—but more judiciously formed than his own. He would conclude by moving— An Address for Copies or Extracts of any Communications received by the Secretary of State from the Governors of Ceylon and the Cape, respecting the Transportation of Convicts to those Colonies.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

seconded the Motion. He would confine himself to the state of the Irish prisons, and begged the attention of the House and the Government to the subject. They had been accustomed to bear of violence, famine, and disease from Ireland, but he wished to direct their notice to the condition of the Irish gaols. It appeared, from the report of the Inspector General of Prisons in Ireland, that in 1847 there were 12,883 persons crowded into gaols designed to contain no more than 5,655. He regretted to say that of late years there had been, in that country, an increase of crime as well as of distress. In 1845, the number of convictions in Ireland was 7,105; of committals, 16,696. In 1846, convictions, 8,693; commitments, 18,492. In 1847, convictions, 15,233; committals, 31,209. So that between 1845 and 1847, the commitments and convictions had nearly doubled. But there was still a more awful part of the subject. The deaths in gaols were truly frightful. In 1835, they were only 81; in 1836, they were 132; but in 1847, they reached the alarming amount of 1,315. It might be said, perhaps, that those deaths had arisen from the want of due care and attention on the part of those officers who were bound to look after these matters; but it was not so, as would appear from the following extract of the report of the Inspector General of Prisons in Ireland, which he would read to the House:— No task can well be more discouraging and, indeed, melancholy than that of attempting to detail the history of the Irish prisons for the year 1847. Years of untiring assiduity had overcome many of the evils under which they formerly laboured. Our predecessors as inspectors, and the various boards of superintendence, local inspectors, and governors had, under circumstances of great difficulty, brought the country gaols, as a general rule, to a state of which any country might be proud; and we had looked forward to the comparatively easy task of eradicating the few real blots which existed in their discipline and order, and exciting the very few boards and grand juries who had not earnestly commenced the work of improvement, to imitate the example shown them by the great majority, when the terrible catastrophe, which has disorganised the whole framework of society in Ireland, fell, with its full force, upon the establishments under our charge; and, instead of having a pleasing statement of improved discipline, enlarged prison accommodation, and advanced instruction, we can only describe industrial works given up, classification destroyed, separation unattempted, and disease and death increasing to a degree that could never have been contemplated by those acquainted with the usual orderly and healthy state of our gaols. The accumulated misfortunes and evil coincidences of the last year have been such as to produce a state of things for which, although the inspectors general, in a great measure, foresaw their results, it was utterly impossible for them to adopt any effective preventive measures, and their utmost efforts have merely tended to produce a palliative effect. He would also mention the case of Kerry gaol, built to accommodate 86 persons, but which now contained no less than 582 prisoners, being six times the number it was designed to hold. Amongst that number were 15 male and 16 female lunatics. Could anything be more shocking than the idea of the sane, the insane, the guilty, the innocent, the debtor, and the convict under sentence of transportation, being all huddled up in the same cells? The evil had been much aggravated by the circumstance that persons who had been sentenced to transportation were not removed when sentenced: 36 were there now under sentence of transportation, and 15 of them were sentenced more than six months ago. The inspectors had suggested a remedy, but it had not been attended to. They said in their report— To provide for this latter body (convicts), we see no other mode practicable, at the present moment, except by procuring hulks, to be stationed either in Kingston or Cork harbour, or making arrangements for sending still greater numbers abroad, should it be found possible to resume the system of transportation. We may further observe that the prisons at this moment most crowded, are, by a singular chance, almost all seaport towns—namely, Cork, Tralee, Galway, and Castlebar; and it might be worth the consideration of Government, whether they should not supply, or empower boards of superintendence to hire, tonnage in the various harbours, for the purpose of confining prisoners, as a temporary measure for meeting the present emergency. Such a scheme as this, of course, could only be contemplated under the extreme circumstances of misery, distress, and disease at present existing in those prisons. For the gaols more inland, such as Roscommon, Carrick-on-Shannon, Armagh, Omagh, &c., we feel that there exist no remedies except those indicated above—namely, firstly, if possible, refraining from committing vagrants and beggars, and discharging those already committed for slight offences and short periods; secondly, directing a different course to be pursued with regard to the workhouse offences, or giving powers to magistrates to punish such in the workhouses themselves; thirdly, modifying the dietary of prisons to meet the case of juvenile offenders; and, fourthly, at once adopting some plan for clearing the prisons of the pauper debtors. We are aware that all these measures are in themselves more or less objectionable; but we feel that unless some effectual course be adopted, the prison system in Ireland will, we may say, break up, in consequence of the enormous crowd of prisoners, and the impossibility of levying or otherwise procuring funds to meet the increased expenditure; besides which, numbers of lives must inevitably fall a sacrifice to the continuance of the present state of affairs. He would not quote more than one other extract, which was from the same report:— In fact, we have little doubt, that had matters progressed, as we had every reason to hope they would, that the very greatest benefits, both to the criminal population and the rest of the community, would have resulted from the very general effort which was making in almost all the prisons to improve their discipline, introduce a system of constant employment, and gradually to carry out the principle of separate confinement. It is lamentable to reflect that this prospect is entirely overcast, and that it is impossible to say, in the present melancholy state of things, resulting from the distress of the lower orders, and the financial difficulties of the different counties, when it will be practicable to resume the onward course from which we expected so much advantage. At the present moment, we grieve to say, that the efforts of the boards of superintendence and the inspector general will avail little, except to palliate in a degree the almost inevitable evils with which they have had, and for some time must have, to contend. The hon. Gentleman concluded by calling on the Government to lose no time in remedying this frightful state of things; and doing so without imposing any burden upon the county rates, for they were unable to bear more than they at present endured.

SIR G. GREY

said, there could be no objection to the Motion of the noble Viscount the Member for Hertford. He had understood the noble Lord to have stated on the previous day, in reply to a question he had put to him, that it was not his intention to ask for any opinion from that House on the subject which he had brought under their consideration, and that his principal object was to elicit from him (Sir G. Grey) a statement of the means at present adopted by the Government for carrying into effect the sentence of transportation. He thanked the noble Lord for giving him the opportunity of making such a state- ment, because he agreed with him that it was very desirable that Parliament should have a full and accurate knowledge of the course pursued with reference to this subject. He should, however, first say a few words with respect to the charge of inconsistency which the noble Lord had brought against the Government in regard to the measures they had adopted. He entirely agreed with the noble Lord in his observations as to the difficulties which surrounded the question, and as to the cause of the failure which was to be attributed to every successive Government in its attempts to deal with those difficulties. He believed that failure was owing to the fact that successive Governments had attempted more than it was possible to accomplish when they aimed at a perfect system; for experience showed that all that could be done in the matter was to carry into effect the sentence of transportation, or any other secondary punishment, not in a way which would be free from objection, but in the way which would be least liable to objection, and which would attain as far as possible the two great objects of deterring criminals from crime, and of reforming convicted offenders. Now, he should observe that any charge which the noble Lord could bring forward against his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office for the course that had been pursued on that subject, would press equally on him (Sir G. Grey), for he shared the responsibility of every stop that had been taken in the matter. He confessed, however, that he did not feel particularly desirous of exonerating himself from that charge of inconsistency which had been preferred by the noble Lord. He believed that, in carrying out the details of such a system as that of transportation, consistency would have been a fault rather than a merit. Surely a Minister ought not undeviatingly to conform to certain rules or principles, in opposition to the convictions forced on his mind by experience, by additional information, or by the valuable suggestions he might receive from persons whose opinions were entitled to weight and consideration. Two years ago he had travelled over much of the ground which the noble Lord had gone over that evening; and he would not, therefore, at that moment enter at any length into subjects on which he had at that former period fully expressed his opinions. He had stated on that occasion that the system adopted was a testative system. The Government had laid down certain rules, which would require great care, vigilance, and circumspection in carrying them into effect; but they were ready to modify those rules as experience might prove to them was advisable. It appeared to him that the noble Lord had hardly done justice to one part of the case—he meant the position in which that question had stood when the present Government had been called upon to deal with it. The frightful and appalling evils which had resulted from the system in operation in Van Diemen's Land had forced themselves on the attention of the prceding Government; and when the present Ministers had succeeded to office they had found it necessary to devise some new means of carrying out the punishment of criminals sentenced to transportation, the great objections to which the system previously adopted had been liable having rendered a change indispensable. The noble Lord would remember the letter which had been written in the month of May, 1846, by direction of the right hen. Gentleman who was then Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. Gladstone) to the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department (Sir J. Graham). In that letter the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out very forcibly the great evils arising from the presence of gangs of hardened and desperate criminals in Van Diemen's Land. He stated, that there had been for a length of time unanimous accordance in the unofficial accounts which had reached his departmant. He said— They have described the system as lifeless and inert for the purposes of good, the redundance of moral evil as overflowing upon the colony at large, in increase of crime, and sensibly affecting the general security; the probation parties, intended to be the scone of reformatory influences, as nothing else than schools of advanced depravity, in which the only effective instruction to be acquired, was instruction in the way of effacing every remaining trace of virtuous sentiment or habit. He added, that— While much exaggeration may possibly prevail, yet certainly such a state of things subsists among the convict population of Van Diemen's Land, and particularly in the probation parties which form the basis of the whole system, as to make it the imperative duty of Her Majesty's Government to use immediate and vigorous efforts for its effectual reform. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had felt that it was absolutely necessary to arrest the stream of transportation to Van Diemen's Land, and to adopt some vigorous measures to alter the system based on the "probation gangs;" and in the opinion entertained by the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, he (Sir G. Grey) entirely concurred. From the position which he occupied, he was bound to give the most careful consideration to the subject. He would not enter into the details contained in papers laid before Parliament of the evils arising from that system. He should merely observe that those accounts were of the most appalling character, and that they were sufficient to convince any one that we should be committing, he would not say merely a fault, but a crime of the greatest magnitude, if we were to perpetuate a system which was productive of such great moral and social evils. Under these circumstances he at once pleaded guilty to the charge of having expressed himself in terms perhaps rather too strong and unguarded against the resumption of transportation—meaning, however, transportation as it was then carried on. The main feature of the scheme proposed by the Government in 1847, and which they had since steadily acted on with some modifications, was, that the strictly penal part of the system—that portion which consisted of the personal restraint of the convicts and their forced labour prior to the period when, under the regulations then existing in the colony of Van Diemen's Land, they would have become entitled to tickets of leave—should be passed, not in a distant colony, where it could only he passed subject to the evil of congregating together large masses of hardened criminals, who had gone through no process which could possibly be reformatory, and who were thus rendered only more incorrigible, but that it should be passed cither in this country or within reach of this country, where a vigilant moral superintendence could be exercised over them. The plan they had proposed was to divide the sentence into three portions, in the cases of ordinary convicts—subject, of course, to exceptional cases: the first portion to be passed in this country in separate imprisonment—not the silent system—the maximum duration to be eighteen months, but ranging from six to twelve mouths. It had been stated by Mr. Latrobe, who had been acting Governor of Van Diemen's Land, that it was impossible to exercise in that colony the vigilant superintendence which would be indispensable for the proper working of the system of "probation gangs." It appeared that officers in whom confi- dence could be placed could not be got to superintend the gangs, and that convicts had to be placed over convicts. The consequence was that the system had necessarily failed, and that it was impossible so to administer it that it would be free from the most serious objections. With respect to the system of separate confinement, he wished to take that opportunity of observing that a most erroneous impression prevailed that the Government had come to the conclusion that that system had failed, and that they were at present destroying the separate cells. Now nothing could be more mistaken than that impression. Each succeeding year had added to his conviction that that system, subject to great vigilance in the administration of it, was the most valuable one that could be adopted both for the punishment and the reformation of offenders; and he had come to that opinion not merely from his own observation, but also from the information which had been afforded to him by gentlemen practically conversant with the system—he did not mean Government officers, but visiting justices and chaplains of gaols. The Pentonville Commissioners, stated in their 5th Report, that— The result of our entire experience is the conclusion that the separation of one prisoner from another is the only sound basis on which a reformatory discipline can he established with any reasonable hope of success. In carrying out any system of separate confinement, we are of opinion that it is quite indispensable to secure a constant and vigilant medical superintendence, and those mitigations of absolute solitude, which we believe to have operated so beneficially for the bodily and mental health of the prisoners at Pentonville. We mean chiefly a regular and frequent visitation by the superior officers; moral and religious instruction judiciously imparted; employment that will interest the mind as well as occupy the time of the prisoners; and regular exercise out of doors. If these precautions be duly attended to, we have no doubt that great public advantage would result from the general application of this modified system of separate confinement. For whilst we believe that it is open to no objections which are not applicable to every other mode of imprisonment for long periods, we are confident that it affords moral advantages which no other can secure. Many other gentlemen of great knowledge and experience had taken the same view of the subject, and were impressed with the belief that a modified system of separate confinement was a most valuable one, and possessed most important advantages over every other. He wished to call the attention of the House to an extract from a pamphlet lately published, entitled. The Precise Present Character of Transpor- tation, as that extract expresses an opinion upon this subject with which he entirely concurred. That pamphlet, he should promise, was published anonymously, but he had reason to conclude from internal evidence that it was the production of a chaplain in one of the prisons in which the separate system was adopted. The writer said— This sort of confinement has of late years been extravagantly commended by some, and as loudly reprobated by others. The truth seems to lie between the two extreme opinions. We are led, by our own observation, to value it but little as an active agency for reforming criminals, but to allow it a high place as auxiliary, in general, to that which is reformatory in the highest degree—Christian instruction in the hands of Christian men. The separate system is free, certainly, from many things which impede the reformation of criminals; from the perpetual distrust and perpetual punishment which are necessary to enforce silence in association; and from the grosser vices of the older style of persons, mutual contamination and hardening in villany. It allows a return to feelings of self-respect. It removes all possibility of combination for evil purposes, and prevents the exertion of that fascinating influence which the practised villain exerts so destructively over the novice in crime. It protects the penitent in his first desires and efforts to return to God. It is something, also, as regards others less hopeful, even for a time, effectually to break the chain of their evil habits, and to compel the mind, however reluctant, to turn inwards and reflect, until the dormant powers of conscience be aroused. Beyond this it does not seem to go in producing amendment; and we are persuaded, that if the benign and saving influence of our Divine religion were withdrawn from a prison on the separate plan, not a single inmate would ever leave its walls a whit more reformed than from any other. If it be thought, from what has been written of late years on the subject, that a greater efficacy should be attributed to separate confinement, let it be borne in mind, that contemporaneously with its adoption in any prison, there has been very much greater care taken than ever used to be in the selection of officers to superintend the discipline, and to convey moral and religious instruction to the prisoners. So much as to the reformatory effect. In a subsequent passage, he says, with reference to its deterring effect— But, whatever may be thought of the influence of separate confinement as a means of reformation, there should be no doubt about its utility as a punishment, if not carried to an extreme. It is a most severe one, certainly; but this is not without great advantages, even in an economical point of view, for, in proportion as it is severer, the sentence may be abridged, and its heaviest pressure is upon those who deserve it most. Criminals, of all men, can least boar to be alone. A thoroughly bad man, by himself, is the greatest coward, and, without his accustomed stimulants, the most wretched of beings; we have no hesitation, therefore, in stating, that such a man would prefer even the scanty food, the vermin, and the sloth of such a place as Newgate, where he might gamble for his supper, learn new tricks, or instruct the novice, sing, play, and quarrel by turns in the night-room, than the very best treatment and the most abundant diet of a prison on the new plan. The reformatory character of such a gaol is, to such persons, an object of real terror. The only other passage he would cite from this pamphlet was the following, as it referred to the opinion formed by the Committee of the House of Lords which took much evidence on the question:— The decision of Lord Brougham's Committee on the point, it is important to observe, is, 'that the separate system seems exactly to supply what was needed in gaol discipline, but should be administered with great care.' He (Sir G. Grey) was strongly impressed with the advantages of the separate system; but he wished to add, that its principal value must depend on the moral and religious instruction of the prisoners, and on the zeal and character of the officers employed in carrying it into effect. A picture had been drawn of these places of imprisonment both in the newspapers and at public meetings, which represented them as warmed by artificial means, and supplied with every comfort; and, in short, as most attractive places, which could only serve to hold out inducements to the commission of crime. He utterly disbelieved the truth of such statements. His own experience, and the numerous applications for a remission of sentence by those undergoing the punishment of solitary confinement, convinced him that no more effectual punishment could be inflicted. He was, however, inclined to think that twelve months was generally as long as it could be usefully and properly continued. He would not venture to predict that perfect success would attend the best attempts which could be made for the reformation of criminals; but the experience which they had had of the efforts already made led to the inference that a great change had been effected; and the result, on the whole, was extremely satisfactory. He knew that the hon. Member for Montrose, and some others, considered any attempt at the reformation of criminals was hopeless. The experience of the colonies led to the inference that a great moral change had been made in a very large number, and the result was, on the whole, satisfactory, subject of course to some exceptions. The Pentonville Commissioners, after referring; to various reports on the conduct of men who had passed through that prison, said— We conclude these general observations by a remark suggested by the joint consideration of the favourable and unfavourable circumstances in those reports. These appear to us to demonstrate that, whilst the discipline and instruction at Pentonville have not in all cases prevented the exiles from relapsing into crime when exposed to severe trials and demoralising associations, by far the greater part of them have become useful and valuable servants, superior, as we are told, to the average of free emigrants. We regard this view of the subject as highly encouraging, for it seems to prove that, if this system were generally introduced, a large proportion of our convicts would be qualified, on their discharge, to occupy an honest position in their own, or any other, country; and, if so, we believe that, under ordinary circumstances, there would seldom be wanting motives of self-interest and benevolence to afford them that employment which would enable them to become useful and exemplary members of society. The number of cells at the disposal of the Government, for the purpose of carrying out the system, including Pentonville, Wakefield, and other prisons, was nearly 1,200, exclusive of about 800 in Millbank; and as, in his opinion, the period of separate imprisonment was capable of abridgment, this accommodation might be made available for a larger number. The next stage of the punishment was that of penal labour employed on public works. On that subject he did not understand the noble Lord as expressing any decided opinion as to whether this should be carried on here or in the colonies. He seemed to think there were advantages on both sides, but on which side the balance of advantage lay he expressed no opinion. For his (Sir G. Grey's) own part, for the reasons which he had before stated, he thought it of great advantage that this second stage of punishment should be passed, not at such a distance from this country as Van Diemen's Land or New South Wales, but at home, or at places such as Gibraltar or Bermuda, which were within a reasonable distance, where the regulations laid down by the Government would be strictly enforced by men of a stamp and character different from those who could be found willing to undertake these duties in the Australian colonies. With respect to the hulks, he did not know that he differed very widely in opinion from the noble Lord, for he believed that of all prisons a floating prison was one of the worst; the means of classification and separation there were most imperfect; and it was to be regarded as a temporary expedient, gradually giving way, he hoped, to better places of confinement on shore. A new establishment had been recently formed at Portland, which would not be subject to the objections attaching to the hulks. The credit of this was chiefly due to Colonel Jebb, under whose directions it had been formed. He did not mean to say that the establishment there was altogether free from objection; but the arrangements made there, by providing sleeping apartments completely separate, and using means to stimulate industry and promote good conduct, were such that, without being over sanguine, he thought that more grounds for hope existed with regard to that establishment than in the case of former places of confinement for similar purposes. At Bermuda arrangements of a similar character were in progress, a prison being in course of construction on land; and he believed the discipline at Gibraltar was greatly improved with the assistance of the excellent chaplain at that station. From all that he could learn, nothing could be more striking than the contrast in the effects produced by the arrangements in these several establishments, and the results of the probation gangs in Van Diemen's Land, where the worst characters were crowded together without any means of separation. The noble Lord had asked on a former occasion what period was assigned to the second stage? The rule which existed in Van Diemen's Land, when the whole period of punishment was passed there, was, that a convict should be entitled to receive his ticket of leave at the expiration of half his sentence. The same rule had been adopted at Portland, Bermuda, and Gibraltar, subject to this modification, that the present system addressed itself to other motives than those of mere fear, and adopted other means beside those of mere coercion. It was proposed to enable convicts, by their good conduct, to reduce within certain limits the term of years during which they must be employed in the second stage of punishment; and in the same way it was proposed, to extend the term in cases of misconduct. A scale had been drawn up recently with this view, which would be placed in each of the separate cells, so that the prisoners might know the prospects which awaited them. The noble Lord had referred to the value of penal labour in various places. In Bermuda and Gibraltar the works on which the convicts were employed were of national importance, and the Governor of Bermuda estimated the value of the labour of ablebodied convicts at 30l. a year, while the cost of their maintenance did not exceed 20l. a year, leaving a clear gain of 10l. He could only add, on this part of the subject, that inconvenience having resulted from different authorities having the superintendence of different penal establishments, arrangements had now been made by which all convicts undergoing punishment in this country should be placed under one general controlling authority subject to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by which greater uniformity might be secured, and he hoped also a reduction of expense effectual. He came now to the third stage of punishment, which consisted of the removal of prisoners from this country with tickets of leave to some of the distant colonies, with a prospect of a conditional pardon in case the governors of the colony should recommend them to the Home Government for this purpose. The noble Lord laid great stress on the sentence really being carried into effect by the actual removal of the prisoners. The system adopted by the Government secured that object, with reference to the great body of convicts, far more effectually than it had ever been secured before. At one period, convicts sentenced to seven years' transportation were never removed from the country, but were sent to the hulks; and in the case of all convicts sent to the hulks previously to 1847 he found an understanding had grown up that, after serving half their time in the hulks, they were to be liberated, or, in the case of Bermuda and Gibraltar, sent home at the public expense, with money in their pockets to begin life again in this country. This had now been put an end to. There appeared to be some misapprehension as to the effect of tickets of leave, as compared with a conditional pardon. The holder of a conditional pardon was to all intents and purposes a free man, except that he could not return to the country from which he had been transported, though if one colony offered a better reward for his labour than another, he was at liberty to go there. The ticket-of-leave man, on the other hand, continued a convict; he could not quit the colony, but must be prepared to show himself to the magistrates at any time which might be appointed. He was also expected to repay a certain sum to the Government towards the cost of his introduction into the colony. The object of the Government was to establish a system which—although, perhaps, it might fall short of their original hopes and intentions—yet would afford the means of car- rying into effect sentences of transportation by actual removal to a colony, which was in itself a severe punishment, involving, as it did, the prisoner's separation from his friends and connexions, while it avoided the evils incident to congregating them in large masses, and afforded the means of dispersing them over distant districts where they might maintain themselves by honest industry. The success of this part of the system depended on the facilities afforded for dispersion; and the measures of his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department were intended to prevent too great an influx of convicts at this stage of their punishment into any one place. In the last papers presented to the House, the information given by Sir W. Denison, with regard to the state of the labour market in Van Diemen's Land, afforded reason to hope that ample means existed in the colony for convicts of this class finding occupation immediately on their removal, and becoming useful. The noble Lord had passed some severe strictures on his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies in reference to Norfolk Island. He could not find any evidence in the papers before Parliament that his noble Friend had ever directed that the number of convicts in Norfolk Island should be increased. Since he had directed that it should be given up, the number of convicts had been reduced from 1,200 to 500; and Lord Grey had assented to the suggestion of Sir W. Denison that Norfolk Island should be maintained as a convict establishment for those who were guilty of a second offence in the colonies. He thought it, however, necessary to leave much to the discretion of Sir W. Denison, whose opinion was justly entitled to much weight, and under whose government a most important change had taken place. With regard to female convicts, it was thought better that they should undergo a short period of probation in this country, and that they should then at once go to Van Diemen's Land, the probationary establishment for female convicts in the colony not having answered its purpose. The failure of that establishment, however, was not to be attributed to any want of care or qualification on the part either of Dr. Bowden or of his widow. The noble Lord had complained of the crowded state of the prisons at home in consequence of the diminution in the number of convicts sent abroad. He was aware that some inconvenience had arisen from this cause— but increased accommodation would be provided at Portland in a few weeks; and he trusted that in a very short time, a removal would take place that would enable him to relieve the gaols from the temporary pressure which at present existed. With regard to the Irish gaols, he admitted that the case was wholly different. He believed the hon. Member for Kerry had not overstated their condition. But that condition did not arise from the suppression of transportation, or the diminution of the number of convicts usually sent from Ireland. A great many additional offences had been committed arising from the peculiar state of the country—from the failures of the potato crop, and the consequent distress that had driven the people to crime. There had, therefore, been a great—indeed, an enormous—increase, in the number of convictions and the number of sentences of transportation; and no doubt that had led to very considerable embarrassment from the overcrowding of the prisons. The attention of the Lord Lieutenant had been much directed to this subject, and he had endeavoured to adopt every practicable measure for relieving that pressure. The means, however, were not in the hands of the Government, of affording complete relief, as the great mass of prisoners were those not under sentence of transportation, and for whom the counties were bound to provide sufficient prison room. Previously to 1846 the average annual number of persons sentenced in Ireland to transportation was about 600. But in 1847 and 1848 the number was nearly bordering upon 2,000. So that, in addition to their other difficulties with regard to Ireland, they had that enormous increase of prisoners. He would state, however, that means were being taken to increase the accommodation at the depôt at Spike Island, which would eventually hold about 1,400; besides which, arrangements had been made in other depôts, which would enable them to find room for between 500 and 600 more. With regard to the actual removal of Irish convicts from the country, the House was aware that an Act had been recently passed to authorise their being sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar; and the number of Irish convicts sent abroad in the last year was not less than 859, being between 300 and 400 more than the usual average number of the previous six or seven years. The noble Lord would see, therefore, that it was not owing to the suspension of transportation that the difficulty had arisen, but to the unprecedented number of prisoners under sentence. He might add, that even with regard to some of those convicts who had been sent to Bermuda, the Governor had written to say that they were unfit to be retained there, many of them being mere youths, unable to perform the work usually required of convicts, and of a class which ought not to be associated with the ordinary description of convicts. Now, without impugning the motives of the courts before whom these persons were tried, he feared that the sentence of transportation was resorted to in some cases where it might have been avoided, and thus difficulties and responsibilities were thrown upon the Government which they were wholly unable to meet. The hon. Member for Kerry had stated that the prison of that county contained accommodation for only eighty-six prisoners; that, he confessed, had convinced him of the truth of what he had beard that the accommodation provided was greatly insufficient even for the ordinary number of prisoners. He could only say that any assistance the Government could give to remedy that deficiency of accommodation, without calling upon Parliament for funds, which the counties were bound to provide, they would be most ready to give. The number of prisoners sentenced to transportation in Ireland at the last quarter-sessions, amounted to 596, being equal to the whole annual average for several years prior to 1846; and if that number continued to increase, it would be impossible for the Government to hold out any hope that they would be able to find either colonies or depôts in which to place them. He came now to the exceptional cases, which were men advanced in life, or in a state of health which rendered them unable to undergo the physical toil imposed upon them in the penal settlements. Upon that subject Sir W. Denison, in one of the despatches before Parliament, had pointed out the evils of sending persons utterly unable to maintain themselves by labour in the colony owing to age or infirmity. In the instructions given to the surgeons of convict ships, they were required to object to receive on board prisoners who were unable to bear the voyage to Australia, or to maintain themselves after their arrival. The sentences of such persons must be commuted to various terms of imprisonment. He would now very shortly allude to the recommendations of the noble Lord; and he confessed that he had been in hopes that some valuable suggestions would have been thrown out by him, which he need not say the Government would have been most happy to receive; but he regretted to say that he had been disappointed. The noble Lord had made these suggestions. First, that we should recur to the proposed penal settlement of North Australia, which had been abandoned after a sum of 15,000l. had been expended on it. He doubted whether the noble Lord had read the papers that had been published with regard to that settlement, which showed the impolicy of adopting any such course. The result of such a step would have been to create a colony exclusively of criminals, with scarcely any hopes of future amelioration or improvement. Exiles from Pentonville prison were first to be sent there. The success of the system which had been formerly adopted of sending exiles from Pentonville depended on their immediate dispersion, by which means they would be blended with the population generally, and thus be ultimately lost as a distinct class. Now the plan of North Australia was, that it should be peopled by exiles and emancipists from Van Diemen's Land; who were to be induced to keep together by grants of land being given to them. All he could say was, that he saw nothing but doubt and hesitation in the despatches of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) upon the subject of this colony; and subsequent consideration had only convinced him that the prosecution of that scheme of colonisation would have involved enormous expense, and that the evils of an unmixed criminal population to be produced by it would be equal to any that existed under the previous system. The noble Lord's second suggestion was the resumption of transportation to New South Wales, and that a number of free emigrants should be sent there. This suggestion had already been acted on, and it had been stipulated that the convicts sent with tickets of leave should be required to repay from their labour a portion of the cost of their passage, to be applied in free emigration. The third suggestion of the noble Lord appeared to have been given with considerable hesitation—it was, not that the system of assignment should be resumed, but that there should be a discretionary power vested in the Governor to assign a certain number of convicts to certain settlers. He feared that that would occasion the revival of the interminable complaints and remonstrances of partiality and favouritism that formerly existed; and he did not think that it possessed any advantage over the ticket-of-leave system which would compensate for its inconveniences. Assignment was in fact a system of slavery which was incompatible with free labour in the colony. In conclusion, he wished to state that he thought transportation was a valuable and important punishment. There wore, he thought, great advantages derived from maintaining that punishment; and he trusted that it would be possible, subject to the modifications which had been recently introduced, to maintain it effectively. They were bound, however, to keep in view, not only the interests of this country, but also that of the colonies; and the object of the Government had been to combine both. This, however, could not be done if the punishment was indiscriminately inflicted, nor unless the numbers transported were limited. He thanked the noble Lord for bringing the question before the House, as he felt the importance of full information being afforded with regard to it. At the same time he could not but feel that the very discussion of the question might raise unfounded apprehensions in the colonies, and create additional embarrassment, and he was anxious that the system should be judged of rather by its results than by anticipation. Above all, he thought it would be advisable to leave to the Government a large discretion in carrying out the details of the system.

VISCOUNT MAHON

, in explanation, said he referred to a recommendation of Viscount Howick, when Secretary at War, respecting Norfolk Island, and not to any recent despatches.

MR. HUME

said, much that had fallen from the right hen. Home Secretary, would have been better understood by the House and the public if the rule existed of bringing before the House a detail of the measures that had been adopted during the last year. Many statements had been made by the right hon. Baronet which were perfectly new. The right hon. Baronet had read extracts from a great many papers and documents, but it was impossible for any one to carry them all in his mind. [Sir G. GREY: I did not read a single despatch that has not been already laid before the House.] He was not aware of it. Two things had come out in the course of the discussion—namely, that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Colonial Affairs had made very hasty and very rash alterations in the system of transportation, and after inflicting immense evils on the colonies and this country he had thought fit to modify and reconstruct the system. He (Mr. Hume) differed from the right hon. Baronet in believing that they would effect the reformation which it was said they would by this system. They had established a model prison at Pentonville, at an enormous expense, and they sent there the selected and most healthy convicts, who cost the country throe times the expense of those of any other prison. He thought sufficient time had elapsed for them to decide whether the separate or silent system should be adopted. He did not think the Government were paying due attention to the interests of the country. They were keeping at home vast numbers of those prisoners, who ought to be removed as speedily as possible. He complained of the frivolous labour of mat-making, and other trifling matters, at which the prisoners were kept employed. He had lately visited the prison at Westminster, and had been assured by the governor, who had been in his situation twelve years, that he had never known a reformed convict, and that he would go forty miles to see one who had been reformed. He believed the best course to take would be, to appoint some minister of justice to superintend the convict system, and to see that the errors which the right hon. Baronet pointed out were avoided. The right hon. Baronet considered that the system of tickets of leave, under certain circumstances, had been attended with good results. The right hon. Baronet, however, seemed not to be aware that all the towns in the colonies were now so crowded with that class of people as to create a common nuisance to the society which they came in contact. The plan of assignment appeared to him to obviate all the inconveniences complained of. It was true they were told that this plan was a species of slavery. Well, then, so it ought to be. It was, after all, but a mawkish kind of humanity to say that a person, however serious his crime might be, should not be coerced to labour. He thought that the punishment of transportation should never have been discontinued. It ought rather to have been extended. He would not, however, advocate the system of sending individuals out to the colonies beyond the number, or of a different description, than what the colonists themselves indicated. He objected to the discretionary power which had been formerly given to governors, in consequence of which many criminals of a deep dye were permitted to pass with a very slight punishment. He hoped that as few individuals as possible who were sentenced to transportation would be allowed to remain long in this country. He had no objection that some convicts should be employed in public works in the Isle of Portland, or at Bermuda, or elsewhere; but, looking at the state of our prisons, he did not think that the present system of confining so many here at home was the best course, as not one in twenty of those confined, could, if liberated to-morrow, find employment; the consequence being, that, when lot out of prison, they returned to their old practices again. He had no confidence in the reformatory system that had been adopted. If it were good to carry it through in one case, it should be carried through in all. He gave the right hon. Baronet credit for a sincere desire to improve the system; but be thought he took too sanguine a view of the separate system. The right hon. Baronet had taken no notice of the heavy expense incurred by the repeated trials of the same parties, under the idea that a reformation would take place. He believed that all that was requisite in this country might be obtained by the silent system. No convicts under sentence of transportation ought to be kept here except the aged, and those who were incapable of being removed. He thought that they must return to the old sytem of assignment, which was a much better way of disposing of their convicts than that of keeping them here at an enormous and ruinous expense to the country.

SIR J. PAKINGTON

thought it had been the feeling of the House and of the country for some time past, that the state of this question was most unsatisfactory, and he therefore thanked the noble Lord for calling attention to it. In a debate which took place two years ago, he had himself expressed an opinion to the effect that, provided there was sufficient gaol accommodation, it might be desirable that the earlier period of the convict's punishment should be passed in this country. But the change was made prematurely, and he was afraid that without increased prison room most serious evils would arise. Whatever course the Government might think proper to pursue hereafter, with regard to it, he hoped that it would be such as to relieve the overcrowded gaols of this country. The magistrates of Yorkshire felt the greatest difficulty in dealing with the criminals brought before them, because the present state of the prisons almost debarred the possibility of making further committals. The right hon. Baronet might, perhaps, recollect, that he (Sir J. Pakington) had, but a short time ago, been obliged to write to the Home Office on the crowded state of the prisons in the county where he was a magistrate. He was afraid that, unless the Government increased the prison accommodation of the country, in proportion to the increase of crime and of the population, they would find that serious inconvenience would be the consequence. He stated that he saw by the papers laid before Parliament, that the convicts on arriving at the colonies were readily engaged, some as shepherds and some as general servants, some at wages to the amount of 5s. 6d. a day, and also 1l. 16s. a week, and that the general servants received from 15l. to 25l. a year. The same papers also reported favourably of the conduct of those thus engaged, which, except in some few instances, had been remarkably good. He wished to know whether or not it was the intention of the Government to carry out in those gaols the system adopted in the colonies. Mr. Naylor had observed that it was a fundamental error of all former systems, that no adequate motive for caution was supplied to the prisoners; and he went on to say that, as a remedy for this evil, he proposed that the period of punishment should be gradually reduced in proportion to their own industry and good conduct; adding, that from the moment that that was done, the convict would become the arbiter of his own fate. It would be advantageous also to know whether it was the intention of the Government, in the matter of prison discipline, to adopt the general principle of the system recommended by Captain Maconochie. After much attention to the subject, he had arrived at the opinion that the separate system, of all others, was the best. But, again, when they recollected the vast variety of constitutions and temperaments which were exposed to its influence, they would agree with him that it ought to be regarded with the greatest jealousy and caution. If the Government could engraft on that system the advantageous features of other systems—if they could add to it the incitement to exertion and the advantages of industry—he felt that they would confer a great benefit on the convicts themselves, and the country generally.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he was anxious to say a few words on the subject before the House, and chiefly on the portion of it in regard to which justice had scarcely been done to many distinguished persons who were in office at the time; he meant the probation system which was pursued in Van Diemen's Land with the convicts carried from this country in the year 1846. He believed it was entered upon by the noble Lord now at the head of Her Majesty's Government; that it was developed by his noble Friend Lord Stanley; and when he (Mr. Gladstone) afterwards took the Colonial Office, he began to check that system, and to impress his Colleagues in office with a growing suspicion of it, after it had existed for eighteen months or two years. It was unfortunately true that that system had been productive of the greatest horrors and iniquities. But it was only fair justice to those who adopted that system, and also to those who developed and applied it, to state that those horrors and iniquities were not to be charged on the main principles of the system itself. The House would agree with him that much necessarily depended on the working out of any system whatsoever; but the instrumentality by which this system was carried out was strikingly defective; the rules were narrow, and the management so glaringly bad, that it would require the exertion of the greatest ingenuity more effectually to defeat the end proposed. He was now speaking of the system and its rules and discipline, as applied to the convicts; and he was obliged to say that during the period when the greatest evils existed, and when official information was of the greatest importance. Government were kept in utter darkness; and that when they struck the blow at the system, they did so on the strength of private information, and not on information derived from official sources. It was duo to Lord Stanley to keep in mind that when this system was in full operation, it had never been, up to that period, fairly carried out in Van Diemen's Land; and the best proof of that was, that the system was at the present moment still in operation. There were 30,000 convicts still subject to that system in Van Diemen's Land. [Sir G. GREY disputed this observation.] He repeated it, that the system was still in force, and there were several thousands of individuals in probation parties. The question then was, what were those improvements? Sir W. Denison, in June last year, writing to Earl Grey, stated that he had great pleasure in calling his Lordship's attention to the improvement that had taken place in the probation system by the change that had been effected, the more efficient mode adopted in working out the details, and the zeal and energy that were brought to hear by the Comptroller General. Sir W. Denison then proceeded to give the report of the Comptroller General, by which it appeared that those probation parties, from which such horrors and iniquities had formerly arisen—which had excited so much shame and disgust—had, as he believed, altogether ceased. The system, somewhat modified, was good, if more efficiently carried out. [Sir G. GREY: It was overdone.] No doubt it was overdone. Like others in the House who had already spoken, he felt indebted to the noble Lord for calling attention to the subject—for the course he had taken to bring it before them—and for the statements which had been elicited from the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary. Those statements necessarily bore upon many of the details of the subject. It was not possible, however, for him to form and prove every particular of a plan which his Colleagues were engaged in working out. This was a question of great difficulty, involving details which required experience in dealing with it. He could not avoid saying, however, that his noble Friend (Lord Stanley) was justified in the various steps he took with regard to that system in its various details, in dealing with which, circumspection marked all his course. He must say, on the other hand, he found great precipitancy in the conduct of the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies (Earl Grey)—great precipitancy in breaking up the establishment on Norfolk Island, and carrying the convicts to Van Diemen's Land; and again in carrying the convicts from the establishment in New South Wales to Van Diemen's Land, notwithstanding the promise which had been given to the contrary. [Sir G. GREY: A discretion was left with Sir W. Denison.] The right hon. Baronet says that a discretion was given to Sir W. Denison on the subject; but it appeared from the papers that on the 16th of February, 1847, the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies instructed Sir W. Denison to take measures to break up, with the least possible delay, the establishment at Norfolk Island, and withdraw the whole of the convicts to the settlement at Tasman's Peninsula. Sir W. Denison, indeed, with great judgment, took upon himself the responsibility of disobeying those instructions; and his disobedience was approved, as appeared from the papers, by the noble Earl himself. The same thing occurred with regard to New South Wales. He was unwilling to refer at all to the subject, and he did it, not for the purpose merely of bringing up matters which were gone by, but he thought some notice ought to be taken of these things in Parliament, that they might have some security against the recurrence of such precipitancy. He would now leave that subject; nor would he refer to it further than to express his satisfaction for the authentic information which had been brought out on the system from the Government. He must say that the noble Earl would do well always to keep in view the immense importance of extending as far as possible the area in which transportation took place. In fact, he was sorry to say that in this one department, as in many others in our colonial policy, it must be admitted that they had degenerated from the wisdom of their ancestors. They understood the principles on which transportation could be advantageously conducted better than those of the present day. The States of the American Union received convicts, but in numbers so small that they were easily absorbed in the rest of the population, and the evils which might arise to the community were reduced within the smallest possible limits. On the other hand, those of the present day, having proceeded with less caution, had occasioned difficulties with regard to the political constitution of the colony, and had brought the very name of transportation into bad odour with the colonies. It was mainly from the difficulties which had thus been created that he felt strongly inclined to direct their attention to the colony of North Australia. He felt the difficulties which now surrounded the subject—difficulties, as he had said, occasioned by the evil of compressing the convicts within small space, and by the ill odour into which transportation had fallen with the Australian colonists; but he hoped, with the opening of a new door, that transportation was not to be discontinued. It was his hope that that colony was not to be made a penal colony, and that one or two cargoes of exiles from Pentonville would be sent thither, and not to Van Diemen's Land; for in the colony of Van Diemen's Land so plentiful was labour as compared with the demand, and so great the number of emancipated convicts which it supported, that they had been obliged to relieve that colony by transferring them to North Australia. He admitted the whole question was surrounded by great difficulties; but he hoped that Her Majesty's Government would always take for their cardinal principle the importance of having as extensive an area for the location of the convicts as possible; for if they were to continue the practice of sending them by thousands to one penal colony till it was drenched with iniquity, the very worst consequences would certainly be the result.

MR. EWART

agreed that it was by dispersion rather than compression that any good was to be hoped for from transportation; but he rose to ask two questions—first, how far the principle of dispersion was carried out at the present moment; and, secondly, whether Van Diemen's Land was to be continued as the principal colony to which transports were to be sent in future?

MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEY

said, that while discussing the horrors of transportation they had overlooked those of the gaols in this country, which he considered equally great. [A laugh.] Hon. Members might laugh, but from the gaol of Newgate one-sixth of all the convicts in the kingdom were furnished. Within the metropolis there were no fewer than four or five different systems of imprisonment, and as to the separate system preventing crime, it was a well-ascertained fact that crime was never more prevalent than at the present time. It was the complaint of all the magistrates in the neighbourhood of the metropolis that the present diversified system paralysed all their efforts. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would direct its attention to the subject, and devise a uniform and well-arranged plan of prison discipline for all the gaols in the kingdom.

MR. POULETT SCROPE

begged to ask who were the parties responsible for the frightful overcrowding of the gaols of Kerry mentioned by the hon. Member for that county?

SIR G. GREY

replied to the hon. Member for Droitwich, that character and conduct would be considered in determining whether there should be any abatement in the sentence of prisoners; but that the maximum period of separate imprisonment should be eighteen months. In answer to the hon. Member for Dumfries, he would state, that convicts would be sent to three colonies. Van Diemen's Land, New South Wales, and the Cape of Good Hope, and that tickets of leave would still be granted in particular cases. In reply to the hon. Alderman, he had only to say, that he had approved of the plans for a new prison for the city of London; and that it was not his fault if they had not better accommodation. He referred the hon. Member for Stroud to the report of the Inspector of Prisons for an answer to his question; at the same time he would add, that the condition of Irish prisons arose in the most part from peculiar circumstances, and that generally there was sufficient gaol accommodation.

The subject then dropped.