HC Deb 11 May 1848 vol 98 cc872-6

On the question that the Speaker leave the chair for the House to go into Committee on the Public Health Bill,

COLONEL SIBTHORP said, he had no wish to throw any unnecessary obstruction in the way of the Speaker leaving the chair, but as the Attorney General had informed him in the lobby, during the recent division, that the Bill had been so modified that the principle of centralisation to which he objected was almost entirely abandoned, as well as the proposal to appoint a numberless host of inspectors, he wished the further progress of the Bill delayed till the Bill with its new modifications was reprinted.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL admitted that, in concert with the hon. Member for Warwickshire, he had urged the hon. and gallant Colonel not to oppose the Speaker leaving the chair; but the hon. and gallant Member was quite mistaken in supposing that he had stated what he had just attributed to him respecting the extent of the alterations in the Bill.

COLONEL SIBTHORP said, that all he wanted was to know what the alterations really were; and for this purpose he thought it was a most reasonable proposal to have the Bill reprinted. He was very much disposed, therefore, to take the sense of the House against the Speaker leaving the chair at present.

MR. JOHN STUART begged to take that opportunity of stating that, having in the course of the former debate on this subject attributed the authorship of a certain pamphlet to Mr. Chadwick, he had since learned that that gentleman entirely disavowed its authorship; and he thought it due to Mr. Chadwick to state that he had been mistaken in his supposition. He believed it was perfectly true that the opinions contained in that pamphlet were the same as those which Mr. Chadwick was understood to have advocated; but in referring to those opinions he had no wish to speak disrespectfully of that gentleman, although he did intend to blame the Government for being guided by him.

VISCOUNT MORPETH begged to state to the hon. and gallant Colonel (the Member for Lincoln) that in Committee he would be ready to state the modifications he intended to propose in the Bill; and when they came to the clauses which were affected by these modifications he would then move that the clauses as amended be printed.

MR. FREWEN said, no doubt many hon. Members were aware that not very distant from that House a most malignant fever had been going on for some time. Two persons had already died of it, and Westminster School had been broken up. That fever had, it was stated, arisen in consequence of the Dean of Westminster, who was one of the Sanitary Commissioners, having conveyed some composition, of which he (Mr. Frewen) was ignorant, into the sewers, for the purpose of preventing fever and infection; and a medical man of very great experience had informed him only that morning that if these sanitary improvements were persevered in, the doctors would very soon make their fortunes. These were things that ought to be taken into consideration. There appeared to be amongst hon. Members a general feeling in favour of some measures of sanitary improvement; but he objected to this Bill on account of the centralisation system which it involved. A similar measure was brought in last Session, and, after having occupied a considerable time in discussion, was at last withdrawn. He thought that one more simple, resembling that of the year 1832, at the time of the cholera, would be more favourably received, and might be passed in a short time.

SIR. C. BURRELL believed, that the statement made by the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken was well founded, and he thought it was worthy of consideration how far the disinfecting fluid of which he had spoken could be used with safety and benefit.

House in Committee.

VISCOUNT MORPETH said: When the hon. Member for Oxfordshire, in the discussion on the Motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, in order that the Bill might go into Committee, had expressed his general views in rather a cursory manner, I stated that I could not undertake to pledge myself that I should be prepared in Committee to assent to the various suggestions which he had made. Since that time, the hon. Member has been good enough to favour the Government with a statement of the alterations which he wishes to introduce; and as I recognise, on the part of the House generally, an unaffected sympa- thy in the real objects of this Bill, and a wish to carry some practical measure into effect—as I think the hon. Member for Oxfordshire is one who pre-eminently shares in that feeling; and, above all, as I look upon the suggestions he has made as embracing a considerable improvement and advance in the present state of the law, including in themselves great positive and immediate good, and laying the foundation for much public improvement hence forwards—Her Majesty's Government, after due consideration of those Amendments, have thought it expedient to acquiesce in them so far as their general effect is concerned. I say, for myself, that I have on all occasions invited the attention of the House to this subject, with a simple desire to promote some good practical legislation, and I care for this a thousandfold more than I care for any credit which might attach to us on account of positive adherence to our original intentions. I will briefly state those suggestions of the hon. Member, to which we are prepared to give effect. As the Bill stood, it was proposed that one-fiftieth of the rated inhabitants must make application before any inquiry could take place. I felt, indeed, that as regarded large places, that proposition might appear ridiculous; but as I hoped that this Bill would apply to small places as well as large, and as I did not know the boundaries of the several places to which it would apply, I thought it necessary to propose a number which would not exclude any place from the benefit of this measure. I think, however, that this difficulty may be provided for. We are prepared, therefore, to agree to the following:—When one-tenth of the rated inhabitants of any corporate city, town, or place, with ascertained and defined boundaries, makes an application, inquiry shall take place in the manner prescribed by the Act. If it is found expedient to add any further district to the town or place, inquiry shall take place with the same regularity. When it is not proposed to include any new district, or to interfere with any local Act, the general board shall proceed, as in the Bill, to submit a report, which shall be applied to the district by Order in Council. When a district is included, or a local Act is interfered with, the general board are to frame a provisional order, which is not to be applied to the district till it has received the sanction of Parliament. The matter will not be referred to a Committee upstairs, or be made the subject of a private Bill; but a public Act of Parliament will be provided to meet the case.

MR. HENLEY could only express his thankfulness to the noble Lord for the kindness with which he had taken into consideration the suggestions he had ventured to throw out, giving thereby the best evidence he could give of his great anxiety to make this a good practical measure, and one that would be beneficial to the country. This was not a question that any of them could care from which side of the House it proceeded. They could have but one common object, and that was to render a measure of this sort, surrounded, as it was, by all kinds of difficulty, such as would be useful to the country.

VISCOUNT MORPETH said, he could state, on accurate information, that there were about 300 towns in England without any local Acts. Where there was such an Act it was not intended to interfere with it by this Bill, without an Order of Council, coming under the knowledge of the House, and an Act of Parliament applying to the place in question. Where there was no such local Act, the Queen in Council was enabled to apply this Bill.

MR. HUDSON said, he knew not what were the Amendments proposed to be made in the Bill; they should be printed, and the Chairman had better report progress.

LORD G. BENTINCK wished to add his request that they should see the Bill reprinted. He had himself given notice of several Amendments, and he could not tell how they would stand after the Bill had been remodelled upon the wise advice of the hon. Member for Oxfordshire. That hon. Member had proposed to strip the Bill entirely of its old machinery, and to give it a new machinery, founded upon the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Falkirk; and he thought he asked nothing unreasonable in asking that the Bill should be reprinted.

The CHAIRMAN put the Interpretation Clause.

COLONEL SIBTHORP moved that the Chairman report progress.

MR. SLANEY complained of the delays thus interposed. Every concession had been made, sufficient to satisfy those who desired to see such a measure carried, though they might differ as to the mode, and he grieved to think that these obstacles should be offered.

LORD G. BENTINCK had no objection to going on in the dark, if they pleased, if the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown would get up and explain how the Bill would stand in its new shape. He wished to have the opinion of that noble Lord upon the subject.

SIR R. H. INGLIS said, on a question of social policy, in which the hon. Member for Oxforshire co-operated with the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, he was bound to say that he had more confidence in their united opinion, than in the opinion even of the hon. Member (Mr. Hudson) who had just cheered; and when his noble Friend the Member for Lynn said he wished to hear the opinion of the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown, as to how the Bill would stand with reference to particular clauses, he said, Wait until those particular clauses came on. Concurring in the general prinple of the Bill, he would not delay its progress by another sentence.

LORD J. RUSSELL thought the course proposed by the Government not an unreasonable one. They did not propose that the Committee should at once assent to the clauses which would be effected by the alterations adopted by the Government; but they proposed that such clauses should stand over, and that the alterations should be printed. Those clauses were few in number, and there was nothing to prevent the Committee going on with the other clauses of the Bill.

Motion for reporting progress withdrawn.

Clauses to the 5th disposed of.

House resumed.

Committee to sit again.

House adjourned at One o'clock.