PRIVATE BUSINESS. (Hansard, 26 November 1847)

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
, pursuant to notice, rose to submit the following Motion to the House:— That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether any and what improvement can be adopted in the mode of conducting Private Business—Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Strutt, Lord Granville Somerset, Mr. Francis Baring, Sir William Heathcote, Mr. Hume, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Wrightson, Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. William Miles, Mr. Loch, Sir John Yarde Buller, Sir George Clerk, and Mr. Ord. In thus proposing to the House the appointment of a Select Committee to consider what improvements could be made in the mode of transacting Private Business, he begged to remind hon. Members that he was only following the example of former years. The House had, in two former Sessions, declared their opinion as to the expediency of appointing, for the purpose of considering the subject of Private Business, a Committee composed of those Members of that House who were accustomed to take the greatest interest in that portion of the business of the House of Commons. He was sure hon. Members would agree with him when he said that a more favourable opportunity than the present for effecting useful changes could hardly have occurred. Two months must now elapse before the private business of the Session could be said fairly to commence. As the House was now sitting, nothing could be more convenient than that they should take advantage of the time at their disposal for the purpose of carefully and deliberately considering the improvements which might be made in the mode of conducting the private business which came before that House. The importance of the private business before Parliament was at present so well understood, that it became perfectly unnecessary for him then to dilate upon it; year after year that business had been becoming of greater weight; and he must be permitted to say that the manner in which it was transacted had tended more to raise 222 the House of Commons in the estimation of the country than any one circumstance he could mention. The reforms of a salutary nature which had from time to time been introduced in the mode of carrying on proceedings connected with the Private Bills were of a nature which greatly tended to divest them of any character of partiality, besides that it rendered the justice which those tribunals dispensed both cheap and accessible. He need scarcely remind hon. Members that from the labours of the Committees employed during the last Session of Parliament, most important improvements had resulted. These must be so fresh in the recollection of the House, that he felt he need not particularly advert to them; but, as a proof of the utility of the alterations which had been suggested, he might remind them of the appointment of a paid officer to inquire, before Bills came under the consideration of that House, whether or not the Standing Orders had been complied with. From that arrangement alone several hundred thousand pounds had been saved to the parties interested in those Bills, although the expenses attendant upon the appointment of that officer did not exceed 1,100l. or 1,200l. a year. While upon this part of the subject he could not refrain from observing, that the House and the country were much indebted to the hon. Member for Montrose for his very useful and successful exertions in promoting those objects during the last two Sessions of Parliament. That hon. Member, as they well knew, had devoted great care and attention to the subject. Looking, then, at all the circumstances of the case, he could not suppose that the House would have much difficulty in acceding to the proposition which it was his purpose then to submit for their consideration. It appeared to him at present wholly unnecessary to enter at any length into the reasons he might advance in support of his Motion. Its advantages seemed to him so obvious that it would be perfectly needless to insist upon them in detail; there was, however, one part of the subject so important that he could not avoid asking permission to say a few words on that point, namely, the great advantage that Parliament and all parties concerned derived from the attention paid to unopposed Bills; but it was still necessary that some improvement should be effected in the manner of dealing with opposed Bills. It was not to be expected that with the weight of 223 business which the House had to get through, and with the amount of that business which they were obliged to delegate—it was not, he said, to be expected but that occasionally some subjects should escape their notice; and he could not but think that good results must ensue, if some mode were devised by which checks could be placed upon the manner in which opposed Bills were considered; whether, for example, some regulations might not be applied to opposed Bills of the same nature as those which are at present applicable to unopposed Bills. There was another point on which he wished to say a few words, and it was one, he thought, which could very advantageously be referred to the consideration of the Committee that he intended to call on the House to appoint. The matter to which he now alluded was the Amendments that came down to them from the House of Lords; and he did not speak here of anything affecting the privileges of the House of Commons as an independent branch of the Legislature, because those privileges, he felt quite assured, would be most vigilantly guarded by the right hon. Gentleman who at present filled the chair of that House; but it did happen in the case of Private Bills that Amendments were sometimes introduced in the House of Lords, which escaped notice in the House of Commons, without observation, and became incorporated in Bills. Now, it appeared to him that the Committee of which he was about to propose the appointment, might very advantageously consider whether the Chairman of Ways and Means ought not to be made responsible for the Amendments in Private Bills which came down from the House of Lords to the House of Commons. If the Committee took that view, or a different view of the subject, it would, of course, be still open to the House to reconsider the question, and to deal with it definitively, in such manner as seemed most expedient. No doubt the duties performed by the Chairman of Ways and Means were already sufficiently onerous and important, and they had of late been greatly increased. To impose upon that hon. Member this additional duty formed a point on which he should express no decided opinion; neither should he say whether or not that hon. Member ought to be relieved, wholly or in part, from other duties which he at present performed, or whether the share which he took in private business should be completely separated from the functions dis- 224 charged by that Member of the House of Commons who filled the office of Chairman of Ways and Means. Upon these several points he should, as he said, express no opinion, but suggest that they be referred to the consideration of the proposed Committee. These few words conveyed all the remarks with which he meant to trouble the House. He should not take up the time of the House further than to say, it might be a matter for consideration with the Committee, how far they might avail themselves of the assistance of the officer whose duty it was to draw up the breviate; and he certainly thought, with regard to the first breviate, it might be dispensed with: the others might be given; but he did think that dispensing with the first breviate might be an advantage. He wished, before he sat down, to repeat, that on none of these points did he offer any decided opinion, either as to the appointment of another paid officer, or upon any other subject. He ventured to give no opinion, for this among other reasons, that the duties in which he had been during the last year engaged precluded his giving any attention to the private business of that House; he was, therefore, anxious rather to hear the sentiments of others, than to express any opinion of his own. The Members whose names he intended to submit to the House were Gentlemen of great experience in private business, having given much time and attention to that subject. For these several reasons, he hoped that his Motion, as it stood on the Paper, would be acceded to by the House.

§ MR. HUME
, in seconding the Motion, said, it would be in the power of that House, if they followed up the suggestion then made, to reduce to one-fourth the expenses which the private business of Parliament occasioned to the public. The House would recollect that, by its resolutions of last Session, it declared that Committees on Private Bills should consist of five Members; that they should all be especially enjoined to attend the meetings of the Committees; and that those who had not been punctual in their attendances should not be permitted to vote. The effect of these regulations certainly had been to give the community at large more confidence than ever in the impartiality of that House, and its earnest wish to do equal justice to all the parties concerned. He hoped that the Committee to be appointed would take a careful review of all that had 225 been already done, and that they would lay before the House such recommendations as would facilitate the transaction of business, and diminish the labour which devolved upon Members of that House.

§ MR. THORNELY
hoped that the right hon. Gentleman did not mean to do away with the breviates. Members derived much information from those documents, and they appeared to him to be of great importance.

§ MR. BANKES
said, he had not been fortunate enough to hear the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's statement; but he imagined the effect of the proposition then before them would be to add another paid officer to those already engaged in the service of the House. He did not think that such a step ought to be taken just now, the more especially as it was probable that in the present depressed state of the country the private business would not be very onerous.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
explained: He had given no decided opinion as to the appointment of any officer; on the contrary, he considered that to be a fitting subject for the consideration of the Committee. He had said nothing decidedly; but he wished to impress this on the House, that a saving to the country of 200,000l. a year had been effected by an expenditure of 1,200l. a year.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
observed that, in his opinion, it was high time to resist an alteration of this kind; so far from increasing the number of paid officers, he thought that salaries ought to be diminished. Hon. Members might say that a paid officer was wanted here or there; but all this was mere words. There might be much said about economy; but he judged of sayings by their practical results. Of late years one lavish commission was appointed after another, and in the end no good was done, Unfortunately there was now very little in the Exchequer, and he feared that that little would soon be less. He would say cavendo tutus, it would be well to hold what they had, and not be too ready to part with that for the sake of an uncertain advantage. He should join his hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire in opposing this proposition, unless very fair and just grounds were laid before them for making the proposed change. He should be sorry to increase the labours of the hon. Gentleman who held the office of Chairman of Ways and Means; but he (Colonel Sibthorp), as a humble Member 226 of that House, must pause before he could assent to any Motion for adding to the number of paid officers.

§ DR. BOWRING
hoped that some means might be devised of saving the public money and the time of the House.

§ MR. HUDSON
believed that the reduction of fees was the only thing done towards a diminution of expenditure; he believed that other changes had rather added to than diminished expenditure. Many towns were put to great expense by the Commission sent down by the Woods and Forests; and though, situated as he was, he did not wish to pronounce any opinion on the conduct of the Railway Commission, yet it added to expense.

§ MR. STRUTT
observed, that hon. Members on the other side argued as if his right hon. Friend had contended for the appointment of another paid officer; on the contrary, it was distinctly stated that Government were not prepared to make any such proposition. His right hon. Friend merely wished for the appointment of a Committee, as on former occasions, and no opinion whatever had been given as to what the recommendations of that Committee ought to be. The hon. Member for Sunderland, he thought, could hardly have been present when his right hon. Friend had made his statement to the House, else he would not have said, as he had done, that with the exception of the alteration made in respect to the fees, all the other alterations had tended rather to an increase than a diminution of expenses. If the hon. Gentleman had attended to the speech of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchere), he would have heard that in reference to a matter respecting which material complaints were made in former Sessions, a most marked improvement had been effected by the introduction of a system by which great accommodation was afforded to the public. He (Mr. Strutt) recollected that in the Session before last, as well as in many others, it was constantly a subject of complaint, that parties were put to enormous expenses by waiting to have their cases come forward before Committees on Private Bills. Every day large sums of money used to be expended in connexion with the examination of the Standing Orders. In one case the parties actually paid 500l. for expenses of witnesses. In the last Session an important improvement was made in reference to this matter; and it was reported by the Committee that the effect of that improvement 227 was that at tie expense of a salary of only 1,200l. a year, an end had been put to expenses amounting to several thousands a year. That statement made by the Committee could not have been read by the hon. Gentleman, or he would not have said that no improvement had been effected by the change of system. He did not now intend to express any opinion on the suggestions of his right hon. Friend; but of this he felt quite assured, that the proposed Committee would not recommend any increased expenditure of the public money at the disposal of the House, unless they should see the certainty that such increased expenditure would tend greatly to the advantage of the country by diminishing the expenses of parties, and by rendering the conduct of the private business more economical, more speedy, and more satisfactory.