HC Deb 17 March 1847 vol 91 cc103-6

Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Rating of Tenements (No. 2) Bill read.


moved that the Bill be read a second time.


hoped the hon. Member would not press on this Bill now, as it would occasion considerable discussion, and he thought it would prove, in some respects, most injurious to the interests of the labouring classes. He was satisfied that the debate upon the second reading would occupy a considerable time, for if it were taken be should endeavour to obtain the indulgence of the House, while he stated his reasons for giving his most strenuous opposition. It was well known that there was great objection, in rural districts, to the building cottages for the accommodation of the poor; and if this Bill were passed, he believed that that disinclination would be very largely increased, He was quite aware that there was a great extent of property not assessed for the relief of the poor; and he was of opinion that it was very properly excused, though that relief amounted, as he believed, to some hundreds of thousands of pounds—he could speak of his own knowledge to the amount of more than 100,000l. He felt assured that it was actually no loss to the country, while it had proved of great benefit to the persons concerned. This Bill proposed to make the landlords responsible for the rates of their tenants, but that would confer no relief whatever, for the landlords would be sure to take their own back again in the shape of an increased rental.


thought, that if any extensive alterations were intended to be made in the Bill, it would be most injudicious to proceed with it at present. The measure involved large alterations in the present law of rating, and upon all accounts he thought it would be most desirable to postpone going into Committee upon it until after the Committee which was at present sitting on the law of settlement had closed its labours.


said, his hon. Friend (Sir J. Pakington) had charge of another most important measure, the Juvenile Offenders Bill, which ought to be proceeded with it at once; so he thought they might as well proceed with the Bills in the order in which they stood upon the Paper.


thought it would be trifling with the feelings of hundreds of thousands of the people to procrastinate on the subject of the Factory Bill, in which they were so deeply interested.


accounted for the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Wood) by his dislike to the Factory Bill, of which he was a vehement opponent. It was by all means advisable to proceed with the Factory Bill; and if the Rating of Tenements Bill were to be taken, the Factory Bill must be postponed. There was urgent necessity that the Factory Bill should be passed, in some way or other, before Easter; for he could assure the House that the whole of the manufacturing districts were in the most intense anxiety respecting it. He had, besides, understood that the Wednesdays were to be given up to the hon. Member for Oldham, until his Bill was finished.


said, that there was an express Order of the House, that the Orders of the Day were to be taken as they stood on the Paper; and important as the Factory Bill was—and he was not at all disposed to underrate its importance—the Rating of Tenements Bill was, in his opinion, of still greater importance, and affected a larger number of people. It ought, therefore, to take precedence both of the Factory Bill and of the Juvenile Offenders Bill, both of which stood after it on the Paper.


thought that it would not be consistent with his duty to consent to the postponement of the Bill which he had introduced upon the subject of juvenile offenders. It was of great importance that the subject should be settled before the ensuing quarter-sessions. He was not, however, disposed to offer any opposition to the further progress of the Factories Bill, and he was quite willing to consent to the Juvenile Offenders Bill being read a second time sub silentio, and any discussion that might be raised upon the principle of the Bill should take place on the Bill going into Committee.


said, that he did not think it was desirable that any Bill, upon the principle of which there was a diversity of opinion entertained by hon. Members in that House, should be read sub silentio, as proposed by the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Pakington.)


objected to the Bill being read a second time sub silentio, as the magistrates of quarter-sessions would conceive that the House had adopted the principle of the Bill.


thought that if the Bills were to be discussed, they ought to be discussed at once. He would oppose the proposition to read the Bill sub silentio.


thought that it was most unfair that the opponents of the Factories Bill should monopolise, by their opposition, the whole of the time every Wednesday. He did not think that even if the Factories Bill were brought on, that there would be the smallest chance of its going through Committee that day, or even in the present Session. There was a vast quantity of Notices on the Paper with respect to that Bill, which would occupy a great amount of time.


moved that the debate be adjourned.


said, that a great deal of trouble had been taken to submit the Bill in every county in England to the consideration of the petty sessions; and all, without exception, had approved of the Bill. It was a most irksome and painful duty devolving on the magistrates of issuing summons and distress warrants against the poor people who were unable to pay their rates; and any Bill which would fix exactly the principle and relieve them from this duty was most important. Ho, therefore, under all these circumstances, should wish the second reading to take place pro formâ, and the discussion taken afterwards.


, who declared himself equally friendly to all the measures, concurred in the suggestion.


said, that as the Motion before the House was for the postponement and not for the rejection of the measure, he should support it.


said, the Government knew very well, and ought to say at once, whether or no they objected to the principle. The House could then decide on the principle without delay, as he was convinced a discussion would not alter the preconceived determination of hon. Members.

House divided on the Question that the debate be adjourned:—Ayes 87; Noes 39: Majority 48.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A. Crawford, W.
Aldam, W. Curteis, H. B.
Arkwright, G. Dennistoun, J.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of Douglas, Sir H.
Douglas, Sir C. E.
Baillie, W. Duncan, G.
Baine, W. Duncombe, T.
Barnard, E. G. Dundas, Sir D.
Barrington, Visct. Egerton, Sir P.
Bernal, R. Escott, B.
Browne, W. Etwall, R.
Busfeild, W. Ewart, W.
Cholmeley, Sir M. Fielden, J.
Christie, W. D. Ferrand, W. B.
Christopher, R. A. Finch, G.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Fleetwood, Sir P. H.
Coote, Sir C. H. Forster, M.
Courtenay, Lord Gardner, J. D.
Cowper, hon. W. F. Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Gore, hon. R. Rawdon, Col.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Rice, E. R.
Grimsditch, T. Roebuck, J. A.
Hall, Sir B. Rolleston, Col.
Hamilton, G. A. Ross, D. R.
Harris, hon. Capt. Rushout, Capt.
Hatton, Capt. V. Russell, Lord J.
Hayter, W. G. Scrope, G. P.
Henley, J. W. Seymour, Lord
Houldsworth, T. Sibthorp, Col.
Howard, P. H. Somerville, Sir W. M.
James, W. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Johnson, Gen. Strickland, Sir G.
Lambton, H. Strutt, rt. hon. E.
Lawson, A. Sutton, hon. H. M.
Lindsay, Col. Tancred, H. W.
Macaulay, rt. hon. T. B. Thornely, T.
Manners, Lord J. Tollemache, J.
Maule, rt. hon. F. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Monahan, J. H. Tufnell, H.
Newdegate, C. N. Vane, Lord H.
Newry, Visct. Wakley, T.
Owen, Sir J. Wawn, J. T.
Palmer, R.
Parker, J. TELLERS.
Patten, J. W. Bright, J.
Protheroe, E. D. Brotherton, J.
List of the NOES.
Adderley, C. B. Jermyn, Earl
Allix, J. P. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Baskerville, T. B. M. Jones, Capt.
Bennet, P. Langston, J. H.
Beresford, Major Law, hon. C. E.
Brisco, M. Mackenzie, T.
Broadley, H. Maunsell, T. P.
Buck, L. W. Miles, W.
Cabbell, B. B. Neville, R.
Carew, W. H. P. O'Brien, A. S.
Chute, W. L. W. Pakington, Sir J.
Codrington, Sir W. Polhill, F.
Cripps, W. Prime, R.
Dickinson, F. H. Round, C. G.
Douglas, J. D. S. Smith, rt. hon. R. V.
Egerton, W. T. Sotheron, T. H.
Fellowes, E. Spooner, R.
Greene, T. Wood, Col. T.
Hervey, Lord A. TELLERS.
Hodgson, F. Packe, H.
Hope, Sir J. Waddington, R.

Debate adjourned to March 31st.

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