VOLUNTARY EMIGRATION.

HC Deb 04 March 1847 vol 90 cc837-61

MR. VERNON SMITH

said, he could assure the House, even if his notice did not convince them, that he was not about to enter at length into the wide and important question of emigration. Such a course had been pursued at no very distant occasions by the hon. Members for Sheffield, for Limerick, and for Liskeard, not without its advantages. But, first, he did not possess the eloquence of those Gentlemen; secondly, if he did, they had preceded him; and, thirdly, he hoped to at-chieve some result which they had failed in accomplishing. He could not, however, make the Motion he intended, without giving a short, slight, but, he trusted, a just sketch of the position in which the principle of emigration at present stood. He believed it was admitted on all hands that anything like a system of compulsory emigration would be abhorrent to the feelings of the people, and alien to the popular institutions of which we were so proud. Even the application of a large sum of money for the purpose of any national system, such as had been broached by other hon. Members, would be refused by Her Majesty's Ministers, and would not be urged upon them at present by a majority of the House. On the other hand, however, there had grown up lately in this country, and now existed, a much more favourable feeling towards voluntary emigration. Could any man open any one of those reports upon the state of the population which overwhelmed the tables of Members of Parliament, without discovering that in some portions of this country there was an excessive population choking up the suburban districts of the country, and that human beings were so crowded together as to prove detrimental to health and injurious to morals? Look at the sanitary reports. It appeared that, when fever arose, there was a difficulty of removing those who had recently expired, from those who were just expiring; or, to use the language of one of the physicians, "such was the slaughter of the living by the dead!" Again, in the agricultural districts, the position of the day labourer was such, that it was difficult to imagine how subsistence was procured upon the low wages at which they worked. This was the condition of England, the happiest and at present the palmiest portion of Her Majesty's dominions. What was the state of Scotland—that country whence, let him remind the House, the most energetic and industrious emigrants proceeded? They had heard that very evening a question put by an hon. Member on this subject (Sir A. L. Hay); and the reply that was made to it by the Lord Advocate showed that the most desperate consequences had been the result of distress in Scotland. He need say nothing as to the state of Ireland, inasmuch as it had occupied almost the whole of their time during the Session; and even that night the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland informed them that the number of persons employed on public works in that country had increased to 688,000. If it were necessary, therefore, for them at all times to consider the question of emigration, how much more so was it necessary at the present moment? If such were the physical condition of this country, what were the most recent political movements? In the course of the last year, they had repealed the laws restricting the importation of corn; and yet at this moment they were awaiting with apprehension the ensuing spring to see whether America would send supplies to meet the deficiency of our own harvest. Australia—our own infant Australia—offered her soil, and only asked to till her land by the labour which you could easily spare her. In the last emigration report from thence, it was said that the tillage would be abandoned, in consequence of the markets of England being closed against their produce. His right hon. Friend (Sir G. Grey) was about to alter, if he had not already altered, the system of transportation to the colonies. He did not intend to enter upon that subject, except so far as it was akin to the subject before the House; but, if they were prepared to put an end to it, they should recollect what effect the putting an end to that system would have upon the honest men in this country. He had no doubt the letter of the Secretary of State was familiar to the House. He detailed therein the manner in which he proposed to take under the care of the Government all the juvenile offenders in the country; and let them look at the effect that would have upon the minds and plans of industrious labourers. Suppose a poor man resident in a heavily-rated parish, anxious to maintain and educate his children, is scarcely able to do so from the price of food and pressure of taxation. He is willing to emigrate. Look to the difficulties he has to encounter, and the ignorance under which he labours as to where he is to go, and as to how he is to go. He wishes to take with him his young child, who shall give hope and spirits to his journey and his parent, the memory of whose abandonment would embitter his way. But if his child is under the age of seven, and his parent is above the age of fifty, the bounty regulations, by which alone of late passages have been procured, interfere, and where persons are under the age of seven, or above fifty, a passage is not allowed. Meantime, what is passing in the next cottage, where a profligate and improvident person resides? That man may allow his child to run about the streets, and engage, perhaps, in petty thefts. He is taken up, and placed in what his right hon. Friend said was to be a place rather of reformation than of punishment. After awhile, with his better principles strengthened, with habits of industry confirmed, he is allowed to go to the colonies, leaving nothing behind him but his shame, under the elegant name of exile, with the world all before him, and the British Government his guide. He may succeed in those colonies, and become a man of wealth and reputation. The honest man perceives what has been going on in the family of his dishonest neighbour; but when he proposes to go out to a colony, he is met with every difficulty, and told that no aid will be given to voluntary emigration. To all this, there was one answer with which he was not prepared to cope. It came from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He turned out his empty pockets, and told them he had no money to spend upon any scheme of emigration, however promising. Now, he (Mr. Vernon Smith) did not mean to propose the adoption of any system that would cause the outlay of 16,000,000l.; but he asked them to give such assistance to voluntary emigration as would be useful to this country and to the colonies; and he hoped he should have their assent to the plan he was about to propose. The Motion of which he had given notice applied most particularly to the system now in practice under what was called the Land and Emigration Board. He was not sure that he ought not to explain to the Members of that House, and certainly to the people of this country, that there was in this city a board to assist emigration from this country; and that three gentlemen, now alive, were engaged in the task, however little their existence might be known to the country at large. He had not the slightest intention of saying one word against the gentlemen who performed the duties of Colonial Commissioners; but they were so limited in the small duties allotted to them, that their superintendence was of very little use. To show that this was not mere impertinence of his, he would read a statement made by the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller) in 1844, as showing the manner in which this board was unknown to the public. He stated— That a gentleman who had come from Canada, to organize an extensive emigration to a very fertile district on the banks of the river Ottawa, called on me to ask my advice; and at the same time stated, that he had been in communication with the Colonial Office, but could not get any satisfactory information. I referred that gentleman to the Commissioners of the Land and Emigration Board. Now, although that gentleman had been some months in England, and had been engaged in intercourse with people in this country on the subject, he was not aware of the existence of that board. Even during the present Session of Parliament, a friend of his had told him that he came to "bore" him upon the subject of emigration, knowing that he had once occupied a post at the Colonial Office; and, upon being told that he should betake himself to three persons who received an annual remuneration for submitting to that operation, the same surprise at their being in esse was expressed as by the Ottawa friend of the hon. Member for Liskeard. From having held that position, he was able sometimes to afford information in his own district; but, frequent as were the changes in colonial administration, it was not yet every district that could hope to be blessed with the residence of an ex-Under Secretary of State for the Colonies. The noble Lord at the head of the Government (Lord John Russell) was the founder of the commission in 1840; and in a letter written by the noble Lord, in that admirable style which characterized every thing that came from him, says— In your capacity as a general board for the sale of lands and for promoting emigration, your duties may be conveniently arranged under the four following heads: first, the collection and diffusion of accurate statistical knowledge; secondly, the sale in this country of waste lands in the colonies; thirdly, the application of the proceeds of such sales towards the removal of emigrants; and, fourthly, the rendering of periodical accounts, both pecuniary and statistical, of your administration of this trust. Now, as to the first duty of the Commissioners—the collection and diffusion of accurate statistical knowledge—it no longer occupied a paragraph in their reports of 1845 and 1846, the head upon that subject being omitted; and as to the second, since that letter was written, an Act was passed regulating the sale of waste lands in the colonies, which was one of the most important of their duties; and another Act was passed, namely, the Passengers' Act, which was introduced by his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Hope), at the suggestion of Lord Stanley. But, the noble Lord having told them that one of the objects they should have in view was to prevent persons being deluded by false pretences to leave this country, a check had been given to some unsound and improper schemes; but he did not see any one instance in which they had suggested or been the advocates of plans for the promotion of a sound system of emigration. He might be asked, in what way he should propose to extend their sphere of action? And the mode of proceeding might be divided into three parts: the manner in which the emigrants would be invited to leave these shores; the manner in which they would pass the seas; and the manner in which they would be received in the colonies. His object was to show, that as regarded emigration from this country, the information which the board spread was so scanty, as to afford no adequate means of knowledge to those who required it. What was the course pursued by private companies when they wished to promote emigration? The first thing they did was to establish an agency in every town of districts whence persons were likely to emigrate. Then, if not very scrupulous, they published inviting placards with pretty pictures of vessels careering over the ocean on their way to happy lauds. Side by side with these showy circulars, he wanted to see promulgated the useful and trustworthy information of Her Majesty's Government. There was no reason why some persons should not be appointed to make searches, and ascertain what parishes were willing to send persons to the colonies, and what proprietors were ready to assist; and in every such district they might institute an agency, which would be at hand to communicate the means by which those who were desirous of going could transport themselves from this country. Or, if a local agency was too expensive, why should not the Commissioners themselves from time to time make journeys through the country for this purpose? Their deficiency of superintendence had, in fact, been shown by succeeding Secretaries of State. Lord Sydenham, when in Canada, proposed that a Government agency should be established to secure the protection of persons on board emigrant vessels; which was objected to, because he was told that it would be impossible to procure such persons, although this country was full of medical practitioners at a low rate of pay, who would be perfectly competent; the salaries of such officers in unions varying from 40l. to 100l. per annum; and the pay of assistant navy surgeons averaging 150l. per annum. Lord Grey himself had proposed a plan to establish villages for the reception of emigrants in Canada, and had been obliged to abandon it, as no company could be persuaded to take the matter up for want of supervision, although such a beginning was almost necessary for his Lordship's favourite policy of municipal institutions as the groundwork of the representative system in colonies. If they wanted to see what such supervision could do, let them look at the reports of their own agents, Messrs. Buchanan and Hawke. He told them of the state in which the German emigrants arrived, and how preferable it was to the condition in which their own countrymen came. They were supplied with abundance of bread, flour, lime-juice, and beer; and, though the voyage had been long, only seven persons out of 902 were in hospital. It appeared from the returns of Mr. Buchanan, the Canadian agent, that numbers of emigrants had arrived from Waterford and its neighbour, New Ross; from Killala, in the county Galway in Ireland; in Great Britain, from Beaumaris, Hull, Plymouth, and Southampton, from which last place the Poor Law Commissioners told us that the south-eastern emigration was proceeding now, instead of from London; and yet at none of these ports were agents situated. There were several other parts from which large bodies of emigrants went similarly circumstanced. At Liverpool, there was only one agent, although not less than 70,000 emigrants left that port in the spring of 1846. However active the agent might be—and that Captain Lear was so, he knew—it was impossible he could do his duty properly. What was the consequence? Why, that proceedings were obliged to be taken against the masters of vessels in the colonies: there were, in the last year, six in Canada, and thirteen in New Brunswick, all which expense might have been saved by proper agency. Of the six in Canada, an account was given in the papers before the House; five obtained convictions—four were against vessels sailing from ports where there were no agents— The masters of the barque Glenthorn, from Tralee, and brig Hope, from Westport, for having an excess of passengers over their legal complement. The master of the brig Triton, from Penzance, for not having having the passenger-deck of his vessel properly constructed. The master of the brig Arab, from Bideford, for neglecting to make the issue of provisions during the passage. The three first of which offences might clearly have been prevented, had there been an agent at Tralee, Westport, or Penzance. When the hon. Member for Limerick brought forward this subject in 1841, the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury said, that he had framed the Land Board, in order "that he might be afforded a greater possibility of bringing before the House a more perfect system;" and he trusted the noble Lord would be prepared to support him in so doing in 1847. It was with this view, to the effectual improvement of the system, that he submitted the present Motion to the House. It would be an improvement, as had been suggested by the late Lord Sydenham, if there was a passenger protector on board of each emigrant ship; neither would it be attended by any great additional expense. The third point was, that when emigrants arrived at their place of destination, they should find, not only an agent at the port of entry, but one who should direct and even accompany them to the spot where they could find location or employment. Such a person was well known to private companies, under the name of a dispersing agent. In this manner, the more eloquent than correct description of the duties of the Land Board by Lord Stanley, in 1843, would be fulfilled. That noble Lord had then said, "There is an emigration agent stationed at every port of the United Kingdom,"—whereas, he (Mr. Vernon Smith) had already shown their deficiency — "thus," proceeded his Lordship, "the superintending care of the Government is carried on from point to point—from the time the emigrant leaves his home, at the extremity of Norfolk or Connaught, till he rejoins his friends in the wilds and wastes of Upper Canada." Make this description literal, and he was satisfied. There was one more subject of a most delicate nature that required the deepest attention—the subject of female emigration—when they considered the fearful disparity of the sexes in some of the colonies. According to the last census, there were in Van Diemen's Land 40,788 males and only 18,114 females. In New South Wales an accurate analysis of the proportions had been made; and the result was, that if all the single men now wished to marry, not one in eleven could find wives. Now, this luckily was a subject which he was not obliged to treat upon his own authority alone. There was a lady now in this country, Mrs. Chisholm, to whom the highest compliments had been paid by the immigration com- mittee in New South Wales. They spoke of her as "a lady whose enlightened and benevolent exertions in behalf of immigrants had been such as to merit the acknowledgment and thanks of the whole colony." With an understanding which in our arrogance we were pleased to call masculine, but with a heart that could only be a woman's, Mrs. Chisholm had devoted herself to the advancement of the condition of free settlers arriving in New South Wales; and this was her opinion as to female emigration, in answer to questions from the committee:— I would propose that they should be sent under the guardianship of respectable ladies, who would exercise parental control over them. I consider there would be no difficulty in meeting with highly respectable persons who would undertake this charge, and feel an interest in their welfare; such as the widows of clergymen and military officers who might be desirous to make an addition to their income. The object of Government should be to keep experienced and respectable persons in this employment. I quite disapprove of females coming out under what is called the protection of families. A number of the young women informed me that they never saw the parties to whom they were consigned, until they met them on board of ship. I think there are thousands of young females in the United Kingdom, the daughters of highly respectable persons, who must earn their own living; and they would come to this colony to better their circumstances. Under a good system the best would emigrate. That this would be the case, was no theory of this lady's. It was known that persons of the class she described undertook the charge of young women to the East Indies. The last subject he should urge on the attention of the Ministry, was the composition of the Emigration Board itself. He did not think it had sufficient dignity and importance; it ought not to be a mere dependency of the Colonial Office. Why not establish a commission similar to the Railway Board? Why not—though he did not especially insist upon it—have a Parliamentary head? The adoption of such a course would add much to the consequence, and, he believed, to the utility, of the institution, and would add but little to the expense. He would sum up the cost, as he had ventured rashly to propose a plan, in order to show the chariest Chancellor of the Exchequer how little he had to fear from him. The additional agency might cost 20,000l.; the female emigration 10,000l.; so that the whole additional cost would not exceed 30,000l. After all, this was the least even of the colonial votes. As to others, only last year they had voted for the improvements in the British Museum a sum of 45,000l. He did not think that money ill laid out. Far from it. He thought it well that the wonders of nature and art, collected in that admirable institution, should be brought familiarly before the eyes of the public. But when he compared the great and extended advantages of emigration, with the objects attained by the British Museum, he felt that as large a sum as had been voted to that institution would be well laid out for advancing the purposes of emigration. He did not, however, mean to ask the House to give any large sums at present; he merely wished to follow the direction which the noble Lord the First Minister had taken, because he must have intended to pursue some more systematic and less desultory course than had hitherto been followed. He wanted, then, to furnish the voluntary emigrant with ready sources of information upon the subject of his wants, at first starting for a distant land—he wished to provide protection for him upon the unknown, and perhaps hitherto unseen ocean; and, above all, when the emigrant should have arrived at the port of his destination, in a place with which he was wholly unacquainted, and in which he had little in common with the inhabitants save the same language, that he should be able to have pointed out to him by responsible agents the best means of at once applying himself to the attainment, not, perhaps, of immediate affluence, but, at least, of that which in his native country had been denied to him, a laborious competence. He hoped he should not receive from his hon. Friends, by way of answer, any of the usual ones given to those unfortunate individuals who might have to bring forward plans of their own. He cared, however, but little for this specific result, if Her Majesty's Ministers would but promise to give ample development and effect to the plans they had themselves proposed. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving— That, in order to assist and encourage voluntary emigration to the Colonies, it is expedient to increase the importance and authority of the Land and Emigration Board—to add to their agency in Great Britain and Ireland, and promote their vigilant superintendence of the passage and future location of the emigrants.

MR. MACKINNON

seconded the Motion. His views completely coincided with those of the hon. Mover. He spoke with some experience upon the subject, having had the honour of being for some time an unsalaried commissioner for the colony of South Australia. There were few subjects upon which so much had been said, and yet of which so little was understood, as the subject of emigration. If gentlemen in the country felt themselves annoyed by what they considered to be an over-population, they immediately came to the House and tried to persuade the Members and the Government that an extensive system of emigration ought to be adopted, the expenses of which should be borne by the country at large. He agreed with these who thought that emigration was most desirable; but he also thought that the less the Government interfered with it, the better. It would not do for the Government to tax the country to such an extent merely as would enable them to send out emigrants to the colonies. They should go further, if they undertook it at all, and raise enough to provide for those emigrants for at least six months, until they would be enabled to earn their own means of living. If they did not make such a provision, they would be committing an act of great cruelty in sending them out at all. They should remember that the individuals of the greatest importance to a colony, were the laborious hardworking people, and those should be provided for until employment could be found for them, if the Government were to undertake to send them out. But they might do much for those emigrants who had means enough to take themselves out, and to cultivate the land which they might get when arrived. Agents of the Government should be allowed to give sufficient portions of land to persons able to purchase. In the colony (South Australia) with which he was connected, they merely took money for the lands allotted and sold to settlers, and applied it to the bringing out of more emigrants. And although he thought that no great expenditure should be incurred, yet if a few thousand pounds were to be well laid out in assisting a good measure of emigration, he should have no objection, remaining still, however, of opinion, that the less the Government interfered directly, the better.

MR. LEFROY

was anxious to take that opportunity of expressing his thanks to the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the question to the consideration of the House; and he did so with the greater pleasure, because he did not generally agree with the hon. Gentleman in his opinions and politics. But he thought the proposal of the hon. Gentleman was at the present time most important; and, however individuals might differ upon the terms of the plan, he believed it would be generally admitted that some mode of carrying its objects into effect should be adopted. When they remembered the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, as to the measures which had to be adopted for the mere purpose of warding off starvation from the people, they must feel that some measure should be adopted for relieving that country from the pressure of such an over-population. He valued highly the statement of the hon. Gentleman; and he thought that if the object could be accomplished, of having a proper superintendence of the passage of the emigrants, and proper officers appointed for their guidance after their arrival in the colonies, it would be one of the most efficient and best steps that could be taken by Her Majesty's Government. The poor law, even as it stood, gave some assistance to emigration; but a generally extended system would be one of the safest and best modes of conferring a lasting benefit on Ireland. He trusted that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman, if it did no more, would direct the attention of the Government, and of every one who considered deeply the position of Ireland, to it; and all must admit that the question was one of the greatest importance. For his own part, he was ready to give his best assistance to the forwarding of such a plan, if he could be of any use.

MR. KERR

thanked the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the resolution. The plan proposed would, in his opinion, effect the most good; indeed, he thought it would be almost the only means, and certainly the most effectual, of relieving the distresses and difficulties of Ireland.

MR. HAWES

could assure his right hon. Friend who brought forward this Motion, that he had not one word of complaint to urge against him for the manner or the spirit in which he introduced it to the House. The subject was unquestionably one of great importance, though it might be that he did not take quite the same view of it as his right hon. Friend; and he certainly did not think that by giving a parliamentary character to the Emigration Board, they would render it of any greater or more efficient service than it was already. He thought, however, that his right hon. Friend rather under-estimated the exertions of the board as it at present existed. It appeared to him that the board as now constituted was neither intended to promote nor stimulate emigration, but rather to assist and advise emigrants, and remove impediments and difficulties from their way, and thereby allow the even current of voluntary emigration to flow uninterruptedly in whatever direction it might naturally take; and he thought he should be able to show the House by returns of what had been done by the board, that nearly all that could possibly be done by it, constituted as it was for the purposes for which he contended it was intended, had been effected most ably and zealously by the Gentlemen composing it. At the same time it was right for him to say that no suggestion which fell from his right hon. Friend would be overlooked, as there was no desire whatever to retain the board exactly as it was. There was an anxious wish felt by the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department that the board should be efficient for the purposes for which it was appointed; and anything tending to that object would receive his attentive consideration. But even if Parliament were to sanction all that his right hon. Friend desired, he thought it would still be almost impossible for the board to do more than they did at present, unless the Legislature contemplated actual payment of the passage money for emigrants; a course which he believed his right hon. Friend did not recommend. He believed he should be able to show that the board was at present far more efficient than his right hon. Friend seemed to imagine, or than the House would be inclined to suppose, from the statement which he had made. The evidence on this head was sufficiently striking to justify him in producing it to the House in a small compass. The board, as the House would bear in mind, had not been very long constituted. His right hon. Friend held, he believed, at the time the office which he had now the honour to fill, of Under Secretary to the Colonies; and in that capacity, his right hon. Friend, no doubt, had frequent communication with the Land and Emigration Commissioners; and if his right hon. Friend would permit him to say so, he was now therefore rather late in discovering the deficiency of the board which the noble Lord, under whom he served, had then established. His right hon. Friend was, he thought, not very successful in the amendments which he proposed. He would for a moment consider what the board had actually done; but he wished first to correct a fact stated by his right hon. Friend, that there was not a vigorous and vigilant superintendence on the part of the board and of their agents. On the contrary, there was a superintending and directing agency exercised on the part of the board, which made the statement of a noble Lord who lately filled the situation of Colonial Secretary, he meant Lord Stanley, strictly, and almost literally true, that the emigrant, from the moment he left his parish until he arrived at the location which he selected, was well and efficiently superintended and directed. Now, he would ask the House to look for a moment to the amount of emigration conducted by the board for the last ten years. Within this period the persons sent out to Australia were 20,000 under the direct management of the office, and 28,000 more under its immediate superintendence; making a total of 48,000 emigrants within ten years. The House would bear in mind that this was a quarter to which emigration had not before been directed. Until his noble Friend at present at the head of the Colonial Department adopted means for making the sale of the waste lands sustain emigration, no free European emigrants had been sent to those colonies. Yet, under that system, 48,000 individuals had been sent out in ten years under the supervision of the board, and had been all provided with necessaries for the voyage, and had, he believed, in the meantime, been successful in locating themselves. One striking proof of the successful operation of the board was afforded by the gradual decrease that had taken place in the mortality on board emigrant ships. At first the mortality was about five per cent; but under the superintendence of the board it had been gradually reduced, until latterly it was not more than one-half per cent. In fact, through the precautions adopted by the board, the mortality during the voyages was at present absolutely less per cent than among the population remaining in the country. But that was not the only instance in which the board successfully superintended emigration, and directed its current. He would refer to the emigration of the Coolies to the West Indies. That plan was introduced by the late Government; and he saw his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. G. W. Hope), who, in conjunction with the noble Lord then at the head of the Colonial Department, adopted that plan of sending labourers from the East Indies to the West India Colonies. In 1845 and 1846, the Emigration Commissioners were called upon to superintend this new system of emigration. Nearly seventy ships were engaged in London by them, and 18,000 Coolies were sent to the West Indies. Here, again, he found a gradual decrease of mortality on board the ships. Those from Calcutta, owing to the prevalence of cholera there, suffered most; but in the vessels which sailed from Madras the mortality was reduced to eight-tenths per cent, and from Sierra Leone the deaths were still less. His right hon. Friend, therefore, had scarcely done justice to the labours of the present Commissioners; and he did not see that any increase of expenditure or any parliamentary expenditure would be more efficient, or that a parliamentary representative for the board would render it more perfect or make it more known. The Commission was under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, who had always a seat in one House or the other; and having, in point of fact, the responsibility of the proceedings of the Board of Land and Emigration Commissioners, he was always present in Parliament to take that responsibility, and to afford either House information. Let him also state to the House the extent of voluntary emigration which, superintended in a great degree by this board, had proceeded from this country. From the year 1837 to the year 1846 inclusive, no less than 856,392 persons had left this country as emigrants; to America, 740,302; to Australia, 100,754; and to other places, 15,536. The hon. Member for Northampton had scarcely given a correct impression of the nature of the agencies connected with emigration. He held in his hand a report from their emigration agent at Kingston, in Canada, giving very minute details of the number of emigrants that had been forwarded by him through the interior parts of the country, which did not bear out the statement made on this point by the right hon. Gentleman. He wished by these details to show that what his right hon. Friend aimed at was already mainly accomplished, and that the system of voluntary emigration now existing was one entitled to their confidence, rather than one which required that the board should be altered, and an unnecessary expense inflicted on the public by increasing the establishment. He wished it to be borne in mind that he did not speak of colonization—there was a great difference between that and emigration; he spoke only of that stream of daily emigration which proceeded voluntarily from this country; and as far as that was concerned, he thought the present board had been successful and of great benefit. His right hon. Friend knew very well that persons not connected with the Government collected people and sent them out to the colonies. Upon that system, he believed, there was but one opinion. He had evidence to show that amongst the colonists there was but one desire, namely, that the Emigration Board should continue to direct emigration. On the part of the shipowners, who might be supposed to be more interested parties, the feeling was to the same effect; and, as far as he knew, on the part of the public, cases of complaint against the proceedings of the Emigration Board were very rare; but when they did occur, they were most carefully and anxiously investigated under the authority of the Secretary for the Colonies, and the active agency of the board itself. His right hon. Friend seemed to have brought on his Motion with reference to the immediate necessity of the present moment; but the Government were quite alive to the importance of the subject, and intended to increase the emigration vote for the present year. There would be more sufficient means provided at the port of Liverpool; and if at any other ports the number of persons desiring to emigrate increased, the number of agents would be increased also; and all that his right hon. Friend recommended, not the less because he did recommend it, would be cheerfully adopted. That would show that there was no indisposition, by every means within the power of the Government, to meet the present emergency, by again directing a voluntary system of emigration. But if his right hon. Friend contemplated colonization through this board, he contemplated that which the board was never constituted to undertake. A system of colonization was a course of policy upon which the Government and that House must decide; it was a much more difficult and comprehensive question than that of emigration. He wished he could speak definitely upon the subject of colonization. His right hon. Friend knew that a question of that sort depended upon the sufficiency of funds; but if systematic colonization, or colonization upon a large scale, was to be encouraged, let them give free institutions and good local government to those colonies. The capital and labour of this country might be bene- ficially directed to them; but the first and great elements of a sound system of colonization were free institutions and good local government. He thought he might say that that end had been at least obtained in the charter and royal instructions for the future government of New Zealand. If there were no Emigration Board established—if nothing were done to regulate the voyage and all the details connected with that long and sometimes dangerous passage—he should say it was within the power of the Government to do much to encourage emigration; but from the experience he had yet had, he thought the present Emigration Board, and the increased vote for the purpose of emigration this year, and the provisions for agents to receive and direct forward emigrants as they arrived, was about all that the Government could do to encourage a system of free emigration which was at all likely to arise under all circumstances. But he must call the attention of the House to one part of his right hon. Friend's speech. His right hon. Friend said, "Increase the number of agents; nay, even appoint commissioners to encourage emigration. Send them into every parish in the country; give every encouragement to incite persons to emigrate." He thought that that would be a very dangerous course, and would lead to great disappointment; for whence were the funds to come? At present, they came from private sources, or the sale of the Crown lands in the colonies; but if they stimulated neighbourhoods and parishes to emigrate, where would they find the funds? The emigrants would be crowding in the ports discontented, and justly so, and the blame would lie at the door of those who so unguardedly incited emigration without supplying the means of paying their passage. Then his right hon. Friend said, that as to the sale of Crown lands nothing had been done. He could show that causes had been in operation to prevent the sale of Crown lands in New South Wales and Australia; but there had been sales of Crown lands, and he found that between 1840 and 1846, the sale of those lands in New South Wales, Port Philip, Van Diemen's Land, Western Australia, South Australia, New Zealand, and the Falkland Islands, amounted to 45,507l.—the whole of which had been devoted to emigration. It was not, however, in the province of the Board of Emigration to direct the sale of Crown lands. He was not aware that he had omitted to touch upon any point raised by his right hon. Friend. He did not wish to meet this Motion by a direct negative, but rather to show his anxious desire to receive any hint that would facilitate free and voluntary emigration. He therefore proposed to meet the Motion of his right hon. Friend by moving the previous question, assuring his right hon. Friend that the subject would receive all the attention that the Government could give to it.

DR. BOWRING

said, the feeling was strong in some of our most remote colonies that the principles of liberty were not sufficiently recognised, and that the influence of despotism was allowed to prevail too strongly. In every portion of the globe where Her Majesty's rule extended, an expectation had been raised that the principles of a representative and responsible government would be established and recognised: and he rose for the purpose of ascertaining the views of the Colonial Office in this respect. It would do infinite honour to Her Majesty's Government if they would allow a general declaration to go abroad, that where British citizens should establish themselves, there the rights of British citizens would be recognised—that they should no longer be under authority of a despotic or tyrannical character, but take with them the same privileges which those enjoyed whom they had left.

MR. HAWES

said, his hon. Friend would scarcely expect him to give a very distinct or definite answer to his questions. It would be highly imprudent in him; but, at the same time, Gentlemen who attended to subjects of colonial interest would recollect what had fallen from his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) in the course of last Session. To what his noble Friend then said, he adhered. He cordially adopted the principle then laid down, and the first fruits of it would be found in the constitution conferred upon the colony of New Zealand. The subject was one which occupied the attention of his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department. Beyond this assurance, he could hardly be expected to enter.

Mr. W. SMITH O'BRIEN

was sorry that so limited a character had been given to this debate. He should have been happy if an early opportunity had been taken this Session of entering upon the whole question of colonization. Colonization was very different from emigration; but as the question was likely to be brought before the House, and measures adopted in the colonies whereby emigration might be carried on to the greatest advantage, he should confine his attention to some of the points adverted to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton. With many of the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions he entirely concurred. He believed himself that sufficient pains had not been taken by the Land and Emigration Committee to extend emigration. He did not think they had been sufficiently impressed with the importance of communicating throughout the United Kingdom information upon the state of emigration prospects, particularly at the commencement of the season. Would there be any objection to lay upon the Table an estimate of the number of emigrants that might annually be received in the British colonies, and also to repeal the emigration tax? No colonization circular had been published during the present year, and great numbers of people therefore were necessarily in entire ignorance as to which of the colonies it would be most advantageous to them to direct their attention. As to agents, not a single port ought to be left unprovided with them; and agents should be established in every one of the colonies to receive and attend to the emigrants. It would also be desirable that when the emigrants arrived out, a minister of their own persuasion should be appointed to watch over their spiritual welfare. The boards of guardians in Ireland ought to have greater power to assist emigration. By these various means he was convinced a greater number of emigrants might obtain improved prospects of bettering their condition in the British colonies, and of becoming the possessors of land. Considering the present state of Ireland, he really did not know any measure more deserving the serious attention of the House than emigration, as a means of extricating that country from its present deplorable position.

LORD J. RUSSELL

would endeavour to answer some of the particular questions which had been put by the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman first asked whether any estimate could be given of the number of persons who could be annually received in the British North American colonies. It was impossible for the Government to form any estimate of that kind. They would be leading the House and the public into error if they attempted to furnish any estimate of the number of persons who could be received in those colonies in any one year; and it was because they were unable to form any such esti- mate, that, after a great deal of consideration, they thought it unadvisable to undertake the payment of the passage of emigrants thither. The hon. Gentleman must see, if he turned his attention to the subject with a practical view, that when a great number of emigrants arrived in a colony, for whom, or for whose labour, there was no demand, great difficulties would arise in the first place to those poor persons who had crossed the seas without being able to better their condition, and that next a feeling would arise among the colonists most injurious to the welfare of the colony. It was, therefore, in the opinion of the Government, better to leave emigration to be carried on first by the voluntary disposition towards it which there was on the part of many in this country, with the assistance that might be given by landlords or parishes to poor persons; and, in the next place, to the intelligence which was received from the colonies and from the United States of America, with regard to the prospects of employment. The hon. Gentleman knew very well—and it was a most honourable service on the part of those Irish who had gone before—that a very large sum, not less than 100,000l., had been transmitted by them within the last few months to their relatives, for the purpose of facilitating their emigration. This fact showed that voluntary exertions, where the Government had not taken any particular direction, were providing funds for the purpose. But the hon. Gentleman had asked whether it was the opinion of Government that the emigration tax should be continued, that tax being, as he must allow, to a certain amount, an apparent obstruction to emigration. He said "an apparent obstruction to emigration," because he did not think it was a real obstruction; and for that reason he thought it ought to be continued. The emigrants arriving at Quebec used formerly to be in a destitute condition; many of them utterly unable to go further; while, at the same time, there was not in the ports of Canada a sufficient demand for labour to afford the means of employing them beneficially. The proceeds of the emigration tax, which did not exceed 5s. per head, were devoted, in the first place, to provide hospitals and care for those who arrived sick, and were unable to proceed into the country; another object of it was, to enable those persons who were unable from want of means to proceed into the country, to reach the places where there was a sufficient demand for their labour. It seemed to him, therefore, that there could not be a tax with a better object, or one which had more fully answered its purpose. The consequence had been, that of late years emigration had very considerably increased; and, whilst it had so increased, it appeared from the reports of the agents in our North American provinces, that the demand for labour had been promoted; there were none of those sad complaints of numbers lying sick in the streets, and of the failure of emigration, which in former years were common. Last year, 1846, the total number of emigrants from this country to British North America, Australia, and other places, was 129,851. The only assistance given at present was a small sum, which he himself recommended, for the purpose of conveying emigrants from Quebec and other ports into the interior of the country, because he thought as there was proof, by their going out and paying for their passage across the seas, that they had some means, a small amount might be granted to assist the emigration tax. He did not exactly know how much that sum was, but it appeared to him that there was no necessity why it should be increased; at the same time, he was quite ready to say, that if next year the tendency to emigration appeared strong and decided, the sum allowed for assisting emigrants might be increased. He had just been informed that the sum was 5,000l. for the present year, and he did not see any grounds for its increase; but though he now expressed that opinion, it would not preclude the Government from taking into consideration the circumstances of the mother country and of the colonies at a future time. To apply at present any further or additional stimulus, might only add to the general distress, and might have the effect of inundating the colonies with labourers for whom no employment could be found. He had been told, that at the present moment the State of New York was about to impose an emigration tax, and to take other measures, in consequence of the number of persons who had arrived there, with a view of checking them. He assured the hon. Gentleman, that if the Government thought the voting of an inconsiderable sum, or even a considerable sum, for the purposes of emigration, would be conducive to the benefit of Ireland and the colonies, they would be ready to agree to it; but, after full consideration, and after seeing the great benefit derived from leaving emigra- tion to the voluntary efforts of individuals, he was not of opinion that any large assistance on the part of the Government was desirable. With regard to the details of the poor law as to emigration, he would look to the clauses which the hon. Gentleman had pointed out, and if they were defective, he should be happy to confer with the hon. Gentleman upon their amendment. With respect to the Motion before the House, he thought the Under Secretary for the Colonies had fully answered the points in dispute; and ho, therefore, had confined himself to answering the questions of the hon. Gentleman.

MR. G. W. HOPE

said, it was all very well to lay down general theories upon such a subject as this, but it was much more difficult to carry them into practice. He had often had to defend the Colonial Department for not doing more in this direction; but when he was in office, it was deemed best not to attempt what they foresaw could not be accomplished. The Land and Emigration Board had been charged with want of energy and activity; but if that charge could be maintained, it was owing to the want of the sinews of war. The Australian Board, which was supplied with funds from the sale of land, had shown great activity and energy, so also had the Coolie and West Indian Boards. He contended that the Commissioners, so far from showing a want of activity, had displayed the greatest skill and energy. As regarded emigration from this country, the right hon. Gentleman had stated that their office was so little known, that persons could scarcely find it out. If that were so, it did not result from any fault in the constitution of the board. He knew, however, that the number of letters answered in one year by that board was nearly as great as those answered by the Colonial Department. The applications were most numerous, and he believed that the information given had been most full and satisfactory. The hon. Gentleman complained that a measure which had been brought in under the Administration of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had been abandoned. That was so; but it was upon the recommendation and report of Lord Sydenham that that had been done. Lord Sydenham said, that he had no hesitation in pronouncing such a measure inexpedient, for the sum that could be obtained from Parliament would be inconsiderable—it would open up an opportunity of jobbing, and would paralyse all individual exertion. Upon that report the scheme had been abandoned, and not, he believed, at the suggestion of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) himself.

MR. C. BULLER

admitted that he had propounded to the House a plan which some might have thought visionary; which certainly was so comprehensive that he himself could scarcely have hoped for its adoption; but yet which he thought might have removed some of the great obstacles in the way of emigration. His noble Friend also had thought, that by making an immediate effort in the way of emigration to the colonies, some beneficial consequence might result to Ireland. Both plans were large, and both had undoubtedly failed; but he asked, whether it was any discredit, either to his noble Friend or to himself, that they had proposed and had done their best to carry out plans which they believed would be useful in their results, and which they, therefore, thought it their duty to submit to the House? He certainly could not apply that charge to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, or to the noble Lord under whom he acted. They had made theory and practice perfectly coincide. Their theory was, that it was unadvisable to take any steps to found British settlements in any part of the globe; and most amply did they carry out their theory. Now, with respect to the question which had been brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith), he had little to add to what had been stated by his right hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies. Any deficiency in the organization of the Land and Emigration Board was not in reality the difficulty in the way of colonization. There were, in his opinion, two great difficulties. One was the extremely imperfect state of the Colonial Governments; and the other was the utter impossibility of getting any land fund from which to defray the expenses of emigration. In Upper Canada, where there was the largest extent of unoccupied land in the British dominions, it had been so appropriated in former times, in consequence of profuse grants from the Crown to absentee landlords, that when Lord Durham presented his report, it appeared that out of 17,000,000 acres of surveyed and occupied land, only 600,000 acres had been left in the occupation of the Crown. Now, let them look at Prince Edward's Island. That block of land contained about 1,000,000 acres. Its insular position, genial climate, and fertile soil, gave it an advantage over almost every other part of the British dominions. That island now supported a population of 12,000 people. But society there was in a stagnant, unproductive, most hopeless state. The blight of that colony occurred in a single day, the day when the king of this country was advised to grant the whole of that island to persons in London who knew nothing about it or its capabilities. The next colony which was available for emigration—which he should say presented the noblest field of enterprise to the English race, which was admirably situated for commerce, superior in climate to any portion of the world, and of great extent—was the colony commencing with the Cape of Good Hope. They all knew the difficulty there—the presence of a savage enemy whom no colonists would venture to encounter. The only colonies left as a seat of colonization, were the Australian Colonies and New Zealand. The Commissioners had used the land there as it had been entrusted to them; they had sent out emigrants on an improved plan—all they could do was simply to superintend their emigration. Then there was a large voluntary emigration to the United States and to Canada—the Commissioners superintended that also. Now, he did not mean to say when the British colonies should be laid open, and should afford that field to the industry of this country which they ought to afford, that the office of Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioner might not be one of far greater importance and utility; but he did say that to commence with a reform of the Colonial Land and Emigration Board at the present moment, would be to fit it for functions which at present it had no opportunity of discharging. Their operations should tend in two other directions. First, they should concede to every body of Englishmen who went out to plant a colony, the right which Englishmen had of self-government; and secondly, they should in every colony establish such a sound system for the disposal of land, as would, whilst concentrating the efforts of the population, at the same time afford an ample fund for conveying emigrants from this country to the most distant parts of the world.

SIR W. JAMES

said, some plan must be devised to provide the means of extensive emigration from Ireland, or there would be no resource for the people there but to lie down and die of starvation. It would be better that something should be done such as had been indicated by the noble Lord, than that such a result should ensue. At the same time, he thought that the devotion of so miserable a sum as 5,000l. a year for such a purpose, was only calculated to act as a damper on the expectations of the people of this country, and to produce the impression that the Government were not doing all they could.

MR. V. SMITH

, in reply, said, after the statement of his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies, of course it was not his intention to divide the House upon his Motion. During the discussion, it had been said that he was rather late in bringing the question under the notice of the House. Now, undoubtedly, the Emigration Board was established when he had the honour of serving in the Colonial Office, under his noble Friend below him (Lord J. Russell), and he heartily approved of its institution; but he had always understood that it was the intention of his noble Friend to improve and extend the original scope of the duties of the board, and it was to urge on that improvement that he had ventured to call the attention of the House to the question. It had also been assumed that he was desirous of stimulating and encouraging emigration by means of agents of the board being distributed throughout the country. He had said no such thing. All he wanted was, that correct information upon the subject should be given to the people, in place of that delusive information which was so frequently put before them, and which was so calculated to mislead.

Previous question negatived.