§ Colonel Sibthorpcomplained of the voluminous nature of the returns, and of the expense to which they would put the country. He was sure that the various corps of the Army affected by the Motion need not fear any species of publicity; but he wished to know on what grounds the Motion was made, and whether any and what ulterior proceeding was intended when the information was obtained. He had himself been long in Her Majesty's service, though now separated from it, and engaged in a career of less glory and 456 bloodshed, still the contests were not without their perils and inconveniences.
§ Mr. Humereplied, that all he wanted was such a return as had been made twenty-four years ago, the whole of which did not more than fill a single sheet of paper. When he had obtained his information, he would decide what course he would take upon it.
§ Mr. Craven Berkeleyagreed with the hon. and gallant Colonel opposite, that every information received respecting the proceedings and arrangements of those gallant corps would redound to their honour and glory. But he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the War Secretary whether he (Mr. S. Herbert) had any objection to lay on the Table a copy of a certain warrant lately issued from the Horse Guards? If his information were right, the two regiments of Life Guards had, in the issue of the warrant in question, been ill treated by the authorities of the Horse Guards. It appeared that the Royal Regiment of Horse Guards Blue were in a state of debt; and that, in consequence of this, the authorities at the Horse Guards had ordered a portion of the allowances of the two regiments of Life Guards for remounting, equipage, &c., to be given to the Blues. It surely was not fair to the commanding officers of the Life Guards that the allowances of their regiments should be taken away to be handed over to a regiment which had got itself into debt. He might be told that the Blues received less when stationed in London than the Life Guards did—but let them look at the difference in the cost of clothing. He had seen a whole year's clothing of a regiment of Life Guards spoilt in one day's review, or by one day's attendance at one of Her Majesty's drawing-rooms. Another matter that would press hard on the Life Guards was the expenses of the two bands, heretofore defrayed from the regimental funds, which were to be thrown upon the officers. This expense was 350l. per year, a paltry sum to the public, but of very great importance to the officers of the regiments. Considering the great expenses of their clothing and accoutrements, and that the Colonels of both regiments would allow the officers to ride only black horses, it was really unfair to cast this burden on them. He had nothing to say against these paltry arrangements, if it were the House's determination to deprive Her Majesty of a corps that was the pride of the Service, and the admiration of every foreigner who came to visit the shores of England. But 457 if it were not their determination to remove from Her Majesty that proper pomp by which her people liked to see her surrounded when making her appearance on public occasions, he must protest, in the first place, against the unfairness of transferring part of the emoluments of the Guards to a regiment that had got itself into debt; and he protested, secondly, against the false and paltry economy of making the Life Guards' officers pay the band that were in attendance every other week on Her Majesty, and formed part of that decent and proper pomp that ought to surround her.
§ Mr. S. Herbertwas willing and anxious to give every information as to the relative cost of the Guards and of the regiments of the Line. He admitted that the Guards were somewhat more expensive, and he should be quite ready to defend that additional expense—for he agreed that it was right that Her Majesty's body-guard should be composed of troops whose appearance and accoutrements were fitted for the decent pomp of state. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who had last spoken had rather overstated the loss that would accrue to the two regiments of Life Guards by the new arrangements. It was true that the allowance hitherto made to the Blues for clothing was not sufficient; it was not true that the pecuniary embarrassment of the regiment had been caused by mismanagement. He, as a civilian, was scarcely enabled to express an opinion on the detail question; but the new arrangements had been made by the Board, which was composed of general officers, and who thought that the allowance to the Blues was insufficient, and that given to the Life Guards more than enough. It had also the authority and sanction of Sir H. Hardinge and of the Commander-in-Chief; and he (Mr. Herbert) could not think that there was a ground to complain of ill-usage on this score — on the score, he meant, of the warrant alluded to by the hon. Gentleman, and directing part of the Life Guards' allowances to be issued to the Blues. With respect to the loss that would be sustained by the officers of the Life Guards through defraying the expenses of the band, it would in reality amount to only 130l. yearly for each regiment, and this would scarcely be felt from an income of several thousands. He doubted not that the ability, the liberality, and independence of the Life Guards' officers would prevent these small matters from causing any inconvenience to their regiments, while the Blues would 458 derive great advantage from the arrangements.
§ Returns ordered.
§ House adjourned at twelve o'clock.