HC Deb 07 June 1842 vol 63 cc1316-20
Sir R. Inglis

had to ask the indulgence of the House in the discharge of a painful duty. Those Members who were present at the close of the business last evening, when the last division took place, would recollect that a difficulty appeared on the part of Members desirous of going forth to divide, in consequence of some obstacle in the lobby, so at least it was then understood in the House. When the division was closed, and when the committee was over and the other business was proceeded with, an hon. friend of his, the Member for Peebleshire, made a statement to the House which he would further call the attention of the house to, as affecting in the strongest manner an officer of the Crown appointed to attend that House as Sergeant-at-Arms. The House well knew that the Sergeant-at-Arms was a servant of the Crown, and that he had no other means of making himself heard than by making a communication to some Member of the House. His friend Sir W. Gossett, in consequence of what took place last night, had addressed a letter to him, which, with the permission of the House, he would proceed to read. It was dated, the House of Commons, June 7, and was as follows: Sir—A statement having been made last night to the House by Mr. Mackenzie, the Member for Peeblesshire, that I had forcibly thrust him back from the door of the House as he was entering for a division, and that I had adopted a rude course towards him, I fear, if I were to allow this statement to remain uncontradicted, I should suffer in the estimation of the House; and I feel it due to my character and to the situation I have the honors of holding, to clear myself from an imputation which, if correct, would render me unworthy of the confidence of the House for the honest discharge of a most delicate and important duty, by which decisions of the utmost moment might be affected. I therefore pray the House will be pleased to have the matter fully investigated, when I pledge myself to prove that Mr. Mackenzie was not entitled to vote; that I did not thrust him back; and, after the door of the House was locked, he asked me, through the wicket, to admit him and the other Members who were shut out; and that he acted contrary to the rules of the House in not withdrawing from the lobby when ordered to be cleared for a division. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your most obedient humble servant, WILLIAM GOSSETT. Sir R. H. Inglis, Bart., M.P. He had also received a letter from an hon. Member of that House, who happened to be one of the Members shut out at the division last night; but as his hon. Friend was now in his place, it would be better that he should state what he saw, and give his opinion as to the statement of the Sergeant-at-Arms. He had to thank the House, on his own part and on that of the Sergeant-at-Arms, for the attention with which it had listened to him.

Mr. Matthias Attwood

hoped that he might be allowed to make a short statement on this subject, as he was one of the Members shut out at the division last night. He had wished to be present when the question was put, as he wished to divide on the motion, but just when he came to the door it was locked, and the information was given to him that the question was already put. Under these circum- stances he was aware that he could not enter the House to divide, as he had not heard the question put. Two other Members were with himself at the door, and they requested the door-keeper to open it, which he respectfully but firmly declined. The hon. Member for Peeblesshire then requested to see the Sergeant, and on the Sergeant appearing at the wicket the hon. Member renewed his request, when he was refused in the most courteous manner. The Sergeant-at-Arms acquainted the hon. Member that to do so would be against the rules of the House. And here he must observe, that as regarded the rules of that House, an individual Member should not look to personal considerations, or wish, in consequence of some inconvenience, that these rules should be relaxed, which were wisely framed for the government of all the Members of the House. But after this the hon. Member refused to retire from the lobby, although requested to do so by the officer of the House. In- deed, on being requested to retire from the lobby, so as to enable Members to come forth to the division, in terms of great civility, he refused in very decisive language. There was no doubt that considerable inconvenience might arise from such a practice, as Members might thus be counted in a division improperly. This hon. Gentleman and another hon. Member were at length removed from the lob- by, and he would state that he was satisfied that the officers of that House did not mean to exceed their duty in taking the course which they did.

Mr. Mackenzie

stated, that he had received a letter that morning from the Sergeant-at-Arms, stating, that he had written to the Speaker on the subject, and requested his attendance in the House of Commons. On his appearing in the House, the hon. Member for the University of Oxford informed him that he was in the possession of a letter from Sir William Gossett, and on his asking to see it the hon. Member, with a want of his usual courtesy, refused to shew it him. He now wished distinctly to state, that he retracted nothing of what he had said last night, and he had no doubt that all that he then stated would be confirmed by an hon. and gallant Friend of his, who was with him at the time. He was inclined to believe, that the door was open when he was upon the last step, and when he was just in the en- trance of the House; at that moment the door was forcibly shut in his face. As for his refusal to leave the lobby when requested to do so, he could only say, that it was very improper, and he had to express his regret at having done so; he had no doubt that his doing so arose from his feeling irritated at the moment at being shut out in the manner which he had de- scribed, but it was not an act which he was likely to be guilty of again. He had made no personal charge against the Sergeant-at-Arms; he had only asked a question of the Chair as to what was the rule of the House, and the Speaker stated that the rule of the House was, that if a Member was in the lobby when the question was put he had no right to vote, and he could only do so when within the four walls of the House. He felt as much as the hon. Member for the University of Oxford or the hon. Member for White- haven the importance of maintaining the rules of that House, and he was quite as anxious to observe them; but the case was one of extreme peculiarity, because it could be scarcely said that he was either within the walls of the House or the lobby. There was a dull debate on a dull subject—everything to induce Members to retire, and they drew their conclusions from the number of strangers in the lobby. But if inconvenience was felt in coming from the refreshment-room now, how much more would the inconvenience be felt in the new Houses, where long passages and galleries would have to be traversed. He had expressed his regret for one part of his conduct, but he appealed to his hon. and gallant Friend if what he had stated was not true.

Captain Beresford (Athlone)

said, that he was present with his hon. Friend, and he thought they were in perfect time when they came to the door, which was closed. He thought it was extremely hard, after having remained during the whole of the debate, to be excluded. He could only say that, in his opinion, they were un- justly excluded from the House, and that his hon. Friend had truly stated what passed.

Sir James Graham

hoped that the discussion would not be carried further. The two hon. Members had admitted that when they heard the division bell they were not in the House, and that they at- tempted to get into the House when the door was closed, and refused to quit the lobby when they were excluded from the House by the division taking place. On the whole, he did not think there was any contradiction in the statement of the gallant Officer, who discharged a difficult duty, according to the orders of the House, with great courtesy; and, at the same time that he performed it with firmness, he did it with all the complaisance due to hon. Members. This, he believed, was the general feeling of the House. The order was, that the door should be locked at the very moment when the question was put, and when there was a press of Members this was very difficult to do with all the gentleness that might be desired. He did not think that it was necessary to carry the discussion further, but he hoped what had taken place would lead Members to attend more strictly to the orders of the House, and at the same time confirm the Sergeant-at-Arms in the course he had usually observed.

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