§ Lord John Russellsaid, he was about to state, when the right hon. Gentleman interrupted him, the intentions of her Majesty's Government with respect to the bill of his noble Friend, the chief secretary for Ireland. He had thought, that that was a subject which required some further consideration, and he was not prepared on the night of the division, without that fur- 1151 ther consideration, to state the intentions of the Government. As it was a matter of so much importance, the House would, he felt confident, allow him to state in a few words the reasons which would induce him to take the course he was about to state to the House. The first consideration related to the general business of the House; and, with respect to that subject, they had to consider that they were now arrived at the first day of March, and that the estimates had yet to be considered, and that the supplies for the present year were open to considerable debate. It was imposible to say how long the discussions on going into committee of supply, and the debates on the estimates might occupy the House. It was likewise to be considered, that it would be very inconvenient to fix the committee for a bill of the nature referred to for some day on which it could not be conveniently brought forward, in consequence of the estimates not having been previously concluded. It would likewise be very inconvenient, many Members being at a distance, if the House should be summoned just immediately preceding Easter, when very few would be disposed to attend the House, and when any debate in committee could only lead to further postponement. These (continued the noble Lord) are considerations affecting the general business of the House as relates to the present bill; but there are other considerations relating to the bill itself. If I were to consider merely the division which took place on Friday morning last, and the 296 Members who were present to vote against the second reading of my noble Friend's bill, I should be disposed to consider, were I to look to that circumstance alone, that the measure was one which could not in its subsequent stages obtain the assent of the House. But the debate on that second reading would lead me to a very different conclusion. There were several Members who, in stating their determination to vote against the second reading of the bill, did not dissent from what I consider the general principle on which it is founded— namely, that it is advisable to endeavour to fix, by some clear and simple method, the franchise for Ireland, and at the same time to amend and correct the registration laws in that country. Neither was it denied by several hon. Members, who voted against the second reading of the bill, that the Poor-law rating stated by the Duke of Wellington and Lord Lyndhurst, to be the very best test, and the only one on which 1152 they could accept the Municipal Corporation Bill, would likewise form the criterion and best test of the right to vote at parliamentary elections. With respect, therefore, to the adoption of this general principle, although those hon. Members so far considered the amount stated in the bill to form a part of that principle sufficient to induce them to vote against the second reading, yet I see no reason to conclude, from the opinions thus stated, that such Members would be indisposed to consider the bill fairly in committee. But, in order to fix the amount of the franchise, I quite concur in the opinions that were stated the other night, that it would be desirable, before the House came to a positive determination upon that point, that further information upon the valuation should be obtained. I am surprised at the feeling and sentiment which this announcement seems to create in hon. Gentlemen opposite, because I see on the benches opposite several hon. Gentlemen who spoke during the late discussion, and who made it almost the main gist of their argument, that before they could agree to the 5l. test it was absolutely necessary that they should have further information with regard to the valuations made in the Poor-law unions. I thought, that when I was stating a proposal for the purpose of satisfying that appetite for information which was so strongly evinced by hon. Gentlemen opposite, the other night, I should have met with their approbation and support; and I confess I am surprised, that that appetite should all of a sudden have died away. However that might be, I certainly consider it my duty, in conjunction with my noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, to endeavour to obtain any further information that can be furnished as to the mode in which the valuation has been conducted and fixed in Ireland, and I think it desirable that a general estimate should be obtained of the per centage which that valuation bears below the real value of the property. I do not think there would be any great difficulty in the course of no very long time to obtain that result. I think, likewise, that it is of the utmost importance, that the House should come to a calm and deliberate consideration of this question. I think that either the forcing, on the part of the Government, the assent of the House to that particular amount of qualification which they think to be best, and which they see no reason to alter—I say, that either the precipitate and imperative forcing on such a 1153 proposition on their part, or on the other side the peremptory and abrupt rejection of it, would be equally unjustifiable. It is a question not merely affecting this bill, but one very much concerning the whole of the interests of Ireland; and whoever may be the party who should bear the blame of prolonging in Ireland from year to year, that state of excitement and agitation which at present exists there, will, in my opinion, incur a deep responsibility, both to Ireland and to the country at large. Upon these considerations, therefore, it appears to her Majesty's Government, that it is necessary and advisable for us to postpone this bill; but not to postpone it beyond the period in which it can be fully considered and passed in the course of the present Session. I shall propose, therefore, to tale the discussion in committee in the first week after the Easter holidays. I propose, that the order of the day be now read for the purpose of its being postponed till Friday, the 23rd of April. I see the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Montgomery, and some other hon. Members, seem to think that an unreasonable proposal. My own opinion is, that if it is intended to force on the discussion of this question, without due consideration, those who are instrumental in doing it will wound and disappoint the feelings of the people, and incur a deep responsibility to the country.
Lord StanleyI must confess that I share largely in the surprise which has been expressed by my hon. Friends around and behind me, at the proposition made by the noble Lord, and the course which it is intended to pursue on the part of the Government. Not that we do not think— for we have avowed and declared it—that the information on which the noble Lord intended to proceed with his bill was so meagre and so inconclusive as to be wholly insufficient for the foundation of a measure of this vast importance—not that we do not think that the information, so far as it went, in its meagreness itself, tended directly to negative the principle and the propositions of the bill of the noble Lord; but this is the astonishment I, at least, feel, that upon a subject of this immense importance, and while the noble Lord himself presses upon us the importance of giving it the greatest consideration, the greatest deliberation, and the greatest caution—at the commencement of the Session, and before any notice had been given from any quarter, her Majesty's Government should have ventured to submit to the con- 1154 sideration of the House a detailed proposal for a measure of this extent, involving such interests, exciting such hopes and anxieties, and that at the expiration of one fortnight from that time they should come down to the House and tell you that the information they have given you—all the information they themselves possess—[an ironical cheer from the Government Benches.] Is it not all the information which they themselves possess? I assume that the Government, in giving us the information they have furnished, have given us all that it was in their power to furnish. If they have not, they have deluded and deceived the House in calling upon Parliament to sanction a measure not only upon evidence confessedly imperfect, but upon evidence confessedly more imperfect than it was in their power to give. But I will assume that they have no more evidence, and then I say, for a Government, after talking about the caution and deliberation necessary to be observed upon a measure of this sort, it does seem to me the height of rashness to come forward with such a measure, and submit it in the form of a proposition, to be supported by the Government upon information which they now tell you they feel to be insufficient to guide the decision or to sanction the vote of this House. The noble Lord having admitted, and having contended almost as strenuously as I did for the removal of the evils involved in the system of registration; and feeling that there was a still greater evil, namely, the uncertainty of the law, and if there was an evil greater even than that, it was the restriction of the franchise, I naturally concluded that the noble Lord, having had the recess to consider this matter, and having consulted with his colleagues, and having brought forward a bill which had received the sanction of the Cabinet, and which was a Government measure, would be prepared to vindicate and defend the propositions they had avowed and put forth as the foundation, as the principle, and, as the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of War had said, the very essence of the measure itself. And I must not permit the noble Lord even to take notice, as he has done, of statements which may have been made on this side of the House without pointing out the broad difference between the way in which those statements were made, and the way in which the noble Lord would represent them. He tells us that it has been admitted that the Poor-law valuation would be a most desirable test of the franchise. I 1155 tell him that in the sense in which it is made the test of the franchise in this bill no such admission was made or will be made, because the basis of this bill is the excluding altogether the test of that 10l. profit which was the very basis and foundation of that measure which, on this very day ten years, the noble Lord for the first time submitted to the consideration of Parliament. He altogether excludes from his bill the consideration of any profit above the rating, and he substitutes the mere amount of rating to which a pauper may be liable for that profit which is now required as the basis of the franchise. We have stated on this side as a test the net annual value of the property, the difference between which and the rent paid, is the amount of the beneficial interest; and that a rate subjecting a party to taxation in respect of the same property in right of which he claims, is a valuable check and an important element of consideration. It is an important element as to the value of the property held, but unless there be combined with that valuation the amount paid for holding it, it is no test whatever whereby to regulate the franchise. I came down prepared to give the noble Lord notice, which the noble Lord's long postponement of his bill shall not induce me to withhold, that upon going into committee, which I am desirous to do without any delay, for I am ready to meet the noble Lord, my objection not being founded upon the information which the noble Lord has either given or withheld—it is my intention to take the sense of the committee upon those clauses of the bill which give a 5l. rating franchise in the counties, and a 5l. household franchise in the towns. I now state to the noble Lord that it is my intention, whenever he may go into committee, to take the sense of the House upon these two leading principles of the bill. I have stated to the noble Lord that the course which I might take was mainly depending upon the course taken by the noble Lord himself. I give the noble Lord great credit for the ingenuity he has shown in this long postponement. He has at his disposal now, for the next five or six weeks, from ten to twelve order days. The main principles of the bill are contained in the first, second, and third clauses, and yet the noble Lord tells you that neither of these ten order days, over winch he has absolute control, can he fix on, but must postpone the committee for two months, thereby placing his bill, and still more, placing my 1156 bill, at a period of the Session in which it will be very difficult for me to avoid being defeated by the mere lapse of time. I do not hesitate to say, that I entertain great suspicion as to the motive which has induced the noble Lord to take this step. At the same time the noble Lord, in taking this course, is well aware of the disadvantage to which he subjects me by endeavouring to compel me to press forward the second reading of my bill at a time when the noble Lord would inform the House most plausibly that he has had the second reading of his bill sanctioned by a small majority, and that he is waiting for further information at the earliest period to be laid before him. I see the ingenuity of the noble Lord's course of proceeding; and seeing the ingenuity of that course of proceeding, and giving the noble Lord notice of the opposition which I mean to give to the two leading principles of his bill, I will not, under the surprise which this course, taken by the Government, has caused to me, as it has to my hon. Friends around me, bind myself absolutely to any day for the discussion on the second reading of my bill. This I will do. I will postpone the order from this day to the 24th of March, and within ten days from the 24th of March I will give to the noble Lord a distinct information, whether, upon full consideration of all the circumstances, it is or is not my intention on that day to press forward the second reading of my bill.
§ The Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Irish Parliamentary Voters Bill was read, and postponed till the 23rd of April.