HC Deb 16 July 1840 vol 55 cc762-3

On the order of the day for the third reading of the County Constabulary bill,

Captain Pechell

objected to the third reading of the bill on several grounds. He had resisted the measure in every stage last Session, but he had been foiled in his endeavour to exempt the towns that had a police force, and the present bill remained in its original objectionable form. The bill gave unqualified dissatisfaction to men of all parties in the towns, Tories, Whigs, and Radicals. If, however, this bill were rejected, the Act of last Session, which was not liked, would still remain. He hardly knew whether he ought to divide against the third reading; he felt inclined to give the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox Maule) a chance of re-considering his opinion, and to agree now to a clause exempting the large towns.

Mr. Law Hodges

said, that although the Act of last year might be required in some counties, yet the desperate remedy proposed was not wanted in several; and, therefore, it was that he had introduced his own bill. As a remedy for the defects of the existing Act he did not object to the present bill.

Bill read a third time.

On the question that the bill do pass,

Mr. Denison moved the re-insertion of the 24th clause, which prevented magistrates in Middlesex, Kent, Essex, Hertfordshire, and Surrey, from voting at Quarter Sessions upon questions on this bill, unless they were possessed of a certain property qualification within the district, and which had been rejected in committee. Unless this clause were introduced, the metropolitan magistrates, having no property in the district, might saddle the counties with heavy expenses.

Mr. Rowland Alston

said, there were many magistrates in Hertfordshire who had acted with great credit, who would consider this clause a great stigma cast upon them; and as he thought no such implied censure ought to be passed by the House, he would oppose the clause.

Mr. Fox Maule

having withdrawn the clause in obedience to what he deemed the general feeling of the House, although he retained his former opinion of its utility, could not now consent to its re-introduction.

Sir Edward Knatchbull

said, that if this clause were inserted, they would lose in Kent the valuable services of the chairman of sessions in West Kent, and he could not consent to its introduction.

Motion withdrawn.

Sir Adolphus Dalrymple next moved the insertion of the clause of which he had given notice, to exempt large towns, in the following words:— And be it further enacted, that the power to appoint, and pay, and to make and levy rates for paying constables, under any act of Parliament made for watching any town, parish, or place, which by the last parliamentary enumeration of the population contained more than 30,000 inhabitants, and the powers and duties of all constables appointed by the commissioners for the execution of any such act, shall continue and be in force, notwithstanding anything in this act contained, or any law or act to the contrary.

Mr. Craven Berkeley

assured the hon. Baronet that the town which he represented would be very glad if his amendment were rejected. If the hon. Baronet would move to exempt Brighton alone he would vote with him, but he could not agree to a general clause, which would exempt all large towns.

Mr. Fox Maule

thought it unadvisable to adopt this clause, because it was not desirable that a town situated in the centre of a county should have a police differently governed from that by which the county was watched. There was a broad distinction upon the case of an incorporated town, because in that case the officers by whom the police was governed were selected by the inhabitants.

Mr. Darby

thought that large towns, being without corporations, had a right to be placed upon the same footing as incorporated cities.

The House divided on the question that the clause be added to the bill:—Ayes 20; Noes 46: Majority 26.

List of the AYES.
Baker, E. Perceval Colonel
Darby, G. Pryme, G.
Gladstone, W. E. Round, J.
Goulburn, rt. hn. H. Vigors, N. A.
Grimsditch, T. Wakley, T.
Hamilton, C. J. B. Williams, W.
Hawkes, T. Wood, Colonel
Hector, C. J. Wood, Colonel T.
Johnson, General Wyndham, W.
Knatchbull, rt. hon. Sir. E. TELLERS.
Dalrymple, Sir A.
Mackenzie, T. Pechell, Captain
List of the NOES.
Acland, Sir T. D. Alston, R.
Acland, T. D. Baldwin, C. B.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Muskett, G. A.
Barnard, E. G. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Berkeley, hon. C. O'Connell, M. J.
Bernal, R. Parnell, rt. hon. Sir H.
Bewes, T. Pendarves, E.W.W.
Brotherton, J. Rice, E. R.
Bruges, W. H. L. Rundle, J.
Buller, C. Sanford, E. A.
Campbell, Sir J. Sheil, rt. hn. R. L.
Cavendish, hn. C. Somers, J. P.
Clay, W. Thornely, T.
Clive, hon. R. H. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Dalmeny, Lord Tufnell, H.
Denison, W. J. Vernon, G, H..
Divett, E. Westenra, hon. H. R.
Harcourt, G. G. Wood, G. W.
Hawkins, J. H.. Wood, B.
Hobhouse, T. B. Wyse, T.
Hodges, T. L. Yates, J. A.
Hoskins, K.
Inglia, Sir R. H.. TELLERS.
Mildmay, P. St. J. Maule, hon. F.
Morris, D. Stanley, E. J.

Captain Pechell moved that the following clause be brought up:— Provided always, and be it enacted, that nothing in this act contained shall extend to any town, parish, or place, now under any act of Parliament for watching such town, parish, or place, which by the last Parliamentary enumeration of the population contained more than 30,000 inhabitants.

Clause brought up and read a first time.

On the question that it be read a second time,

Mr. F. Maule

submitted that the House had already expressed an opinion upon a clause exactly similar in its provisions, and that it was out of order to discuss and decide upon two clauses of the same description.

The Speaker

was of opinion that there was a sufficient difference between the two clauses to render it competent to the hon. Member for Brighton to persist in the present motion.

The House divided:—Ayes 20; Noes 37: Majority 17.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A. Polhill, F.
Baker, E. Pryme, G.
Brotherton, J. Round, J.
Dalrymple, Sir A. Vigors, N. A.
Darby, G. Wakley, T.
Hawkes, T. Williams, W.
Hector, C. J. Wood, Colonel
Hodges, T. L. Wood, Colonel T.
Hodgson, R. Wyndham, W.
Knatchbull, rt. hon. Sir. E. TELLERS.
Pechell, Captain
Perceval, Colonel Johnson, General
List of the NOES.
Alston, R. Muntz, G. F.
Baldwin, C. B. Muskett, G. A.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.
Barnard, E. G. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Berkeley, hon. C. Rice, E. R.
Bewes, T. Rundle, J.
Bruges, W. H. L. Sanford, E. A.
Clay, W. Scholefield, J.
Clive, hon. R. H.. Sheil, rt. hn. R. L.
Dalmeny, Lord Somers, J. P.
Denison, W. J, Thornely, T.
Divett, E. Tioubridge, Sir E. T.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Tufnell, H.
Gladstone, W. E. Vernon, G. H..
Harcourt, G. G. Wood, G. W.
Hawkins, J. H. Wood, B.
Hobhouse, T. B. Yates, J. A.
Hoskins, K. TELLERS.
Loch, J. Maule, hon. F.
Mildmay, P. St. J. Bernal, R.

Bill passed.