HC Deb 09 July 1838 vol 44 cc39-41

The sum of 4,500l. having been proposed, as an allowance to Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, poor French refugees, clergy and laity, &c.

An hon. Gentleman objected to the vote, as repugnant to the voluntary principle which the Dissenters professed, and thought that it was money forced on their acceptance.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

was decidedly opposed to the voluntary principle, and therefore, could not entertain any objection to the vote on that ground.

Mr. Hindley

proposed, as an amendment, hat the item of 1,095l. (the portion of the vote allowed to the Dissenters) be left out.

Mr. Hume

supported the amendment.

Mr. Baines

observed, that it had been originally the gift of King George 1st. to the Dissenters, to whom he was indebted for important services. It had been continued as a gift by George 2nd, but his successor had it transferred to the shoulders of the public. He was of opinion, that when George 3rd made this transfer, the Dissenters, in assertion of the voluntary principle, should have declared against taking this allowance from the state, although there would be nothing objectionable in their taking it as a gift from the sovereign personally. If the matter should come to a vote, he (Mr. Baines) would vote for the discontinuance of the grant.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

had been applied to to withdraw this vote, but he could not do so; first, because he could not affirm the voluntary principle, to which he continued opposed; and, secondly, because, he could not withdraw that which had been conceded originally as a grant by King George 1st.

Mr. O'Connell

would decidedly vote against the continuance of this grant; and, in doing so, he would vindicate his uniform advocacy of the voluntary principle. He was favourable, however, to that portion of the grant which had reference to the French refugees, who were the descendants of the victims of an act of the basest treachery recorded in the pages of history—he alluded to the Revocation of the edict of Nantes.

Mr. Gibson

said, he should vote for the grant, were it only for the purpose of marking his opinion of the insufficiency of any voluntary system. The poorer ministers of religion could never be otherwise supported than out of the public purse.

Mr. Kemble

observed, that if the dissenting ministers felt, that this species of remuneration was inconsistent with their religious principles, nothing would be easier for them than to refuse it.

Viscount Sandon

should vote for continuing the grant, so long as it was received.

Mr. Wallace

on the part of the Dissenters of Scotland, and on the part especially of those whom he had the honour to represent, begged to say, that they had no wish to receive any portion of the public money; he should, therefore, vote for the proposed reduction.

Committee divided on the amendment: Ayes 16; Noes 84: Majority 68.

List of the AYES
Aglionby, H. A. Turner, W.
Baines, E. Vigors, N. A.
Bridgeman, H. Wallace, R.
Brotherton, J. Warburton, H.
Hobhouse, T. B. White, A.
Lushington, Dr. Yates, J. A.
O'Connell, D.
Salway, Col. TELLERS.
Tancred, H. W. Hume, J.
Thornely, T. Handley, H.
List of the Ayes
Abercromby, G. Hughes, W. B.
Ainsworth, P. Hurt, F.
Alsager, Captain Hutton, R.
Attwood, W. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Bainbridge, E. T. Kemble, H.
Barnard, E. G. Langdale, hon. C.
Barry, G. S. Law, hon. C. E.
Bateson, Sir R. Lefevre, C. S.
Blair, J. Lefroy, T.
Blake, W. J. Litton, E.
Blandford, Marquess Lushington, Dr.
Blunt, Sir C. Marshall, W.
Briscoe, J. I. Martin, T. B.
Bruges, W. H. Maule, hon. F.
Byng, G. O'Brien, W. S.
Campbell, Sir J. Ord, W.
Carnac, Sir J. R. Pakington, J. S.
Chapman, A. Parker, J.
Clay, W. Patten, J. W.
Clive, hon. R, Pendarves, E. W.
Clive, E. B. Perceval, Col.
Courtenay, P. Plumptre, J. P.
Crawford, W. Power, J.
Curry, W. Pusey, P.
Dalmeny, Lord Rae, Sir W.
Fitzroy, Lord Rice, E. R.
Gibson, T. Rice, rt. hon. T. S.
Greene, T. Rickford, W.
Greenaway, C. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Grey, Sir G. Sandon, Lord
Grimsditch, T. Sibthorp, Colonel
Hawes, B. Sinclair, Sir G.
Hawkes, T. Slaney, R. A.
Hayter, W. G. Strutt, E.
Hector, C. J. Surrey, Earl of
Heneage, G. W. Teignmouth, Lord
Hepburn, Sir T. Vivian, J. E.
Hilsborough, Earl of Walker, W.
Hinde, J. H. Williams, Wm.
Hobhouse, Sir J. Williams, W. A.
Hodges, T. L. Wood, G. W.
Hope, hon. C. TELLERS.
Horsman, E. Steuart, R.
Howard, P. H. Trowbridge, Sir T.