MR. D'ARCY TALBOT. (Hansard, 22 February 1838)

§ Mr. Mackinnon
rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice relative to the claims of Mr. D'Arcy Talbot on the French Compensation Fund. This was by no means a question of a political nature, and the only object he had in view in bringing it forward was to obtain justice for the individual in question. As several hon. Members now present were not in the House when he brought the subject forward last Session, he should endeavour, in a few words, to state the claims which Mr. D'Arcy Talbot had put upon the consideration of the House. In 1793, the French Government had confiscated all the British property in France, and in 1815, in pursuance of a treaty, it was stipulated that the claims of British subjects which could be substantiated, should be compensated. For that purpose a certain number of commissioners were named in Paris and London, to take the matter into consideration, and at a subsequent period it was deemed advisable that a sum of money should be granted for the purpose of liquidating these claims. In consequence of circumstances, which it was unnecessary now to refer to, Mr. Talbot was unable to bring forward evidence in support of his claims before the commissioners. At a subsequent period, another board of commissioners was appointed to take into consideration all the claims which, upon technical objections, had not been considered by the former board. To these commissioners Mr. Talbot applied, and he was told they would not take his claim into consideration, unless he signed an agreement to the effect that he would be satisfied with their award. At first he declined acceding to this proposal, but being driven by the exigencies of the case, he was obliged to accede to their demands, and sign the paper. When they got his signature they pretended to take his case into consideration, and paid to Mr. Talbot, not the principal of the amount to which he was entitled, but simply the interest. Now, he (Mr. Mackinnon) would submit to the House, that if Mr. Talbot was entitled to the interest of the demand, he 9 was to the principal also; and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow it to go before a Committee of the House. Independent of these considerations, he begged to recal to the attention of the House, that the right hon. Gentleman, when in Opposition, entertained the opinion which he now held, and distinctly gave to the House his advice, that the claims should be admitted. The claims of Mr. Talbot were rejected on mere technical grounds. The commissioners said they could not entertain them, because his application was made too late. That would have been a very good answer to the claims had there been none of the money received from the French Government remaining unappropriated. But there was a sum of between 200,000l. and 300,000l. in the hands of the Treasury, which, if the House did not interfere, would be appropriated in some other way. ["Hear, hear!" from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.] He was glad to hear the cheer of the right hon. Gentleman, and he trusted that it was an augury that he would grant the Committee which he sought. As this was the last time this subject would be brought before the House by him, it was his intention to take the sense of the House upon the motion he should make. What would be thought of a private individual in whose hands a sum of money had been placed for the purpose of paying off certain debts, if that individual pleaded the statute of limitations as a bar to claim, and afterwards pocketed the money? Such, however, had been the conduct of the Government, because there were between 200,000l. and 300,000l. of that sum remaining unappropriated. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow this claim to come under the consideration of a Committee of the House, because, in point of justice, and in point of honourable feeling towards those who had been unjustly deprived of their rights, it was such a claim as the House ought to entertain. The hon. Member then moved, that a Select Committee be appointed for the purpose of taking into consideration the claims of Mr. D'Arcy Talbot on the French Compensation Fund.

§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he had to set the House right upon some points in respect to which the hon. Gentleman opposite was incorrect or had been misinformed. He must, however, 10 first remark, that although it was stated that this claim was now urged, for the last time, he felt some apprehension that even if the hon. Member should be persuaded by him to abandon his motion, or if he should be overpowered by the decision of the House, the case of Mr. D'Arcy Talbot would still re-appear year after year, would be urged with the same arguments as now, would receive the same reply, and meet with the same decision. But the hon. Gentleman opposite was entirely in error with respect to the main point upon which he relied. The hon. Member had informed the House that there was a balance of between 200,000l. and 300,000l. of the funds to meet these claims still remaining unappropriated, and which might be carried by the Treasury to its own use, if it so thought fit. Now, this was the very contrary of the facts of the case: there was not a single farthing of that sum either in the hands of the Treasury, or which could be appropriated by the Treasury. Last year the hon. Member had said the balance was in the hands of the Woods and Forests; but he assured the hon. Member and the House that it was neither in the hands of the Treasury nor the Woods and Forests. In fact no such balance existed. To both these suggestions it was in his power to give the most complete contradiction. The Mover may have been misled by a former state of facts. There had been a balance of the French indemnity fund applied to the building of the Royal Palace—an appropriation which, during the administration of the Earl of Liverpool, the Treasury had by law the power to make. That appropriation had, however, been afterwards held to be objectionable, and that balance was repaid with interest by the Woods and Forests, and under the sanction of the Government of the Duke of Wellington, and afterwards of Lord Spencer, it was appropriated by a judicial commission appointed for the purpose of investigating and judicially to determine these claims, and the manner in which the fund should be disposed of. The Treasury minute to that effect of the Duke of Wellington was followed and acquiesced in by Lord Spencer, and after the money had been repaid by the Woods and Forests a new commission was appointed, and parties who had only an equitable, and not a strict legal, claim were admitted before this tribunal, which was in the nature of a board of reference, to make an award upon the claims of those parties. In order to facili- 11 tate the adjudication, two lawyers of great eminence were appointed, together with a mercantile gentleman of the first respectability and conversant with accounts, and it was directed by the Treasury that all the parties before they went before the tribunal, so constituted, should take the same course which was followed by every man on submitting to a reference, namely, that they should sign a deed of submission to abide by the award. Against that course no complaint was made by the claimants, and every one of them, Mr. D'Arcy Talbot included, signed the instrument of submission, which he would now read: "I hereby undertake to abide by any decision of the commissioners appointed by the Treasury minute of the 15th of March, 1833, and to consider such decision as final and conclusive." Now, this under-taking had been signed by Mr. D'Arcy Talbot; and if this circumstance had been originally communicated by Mr. Talbot to the hon. Member opposite, he thought he had understood that hon. Gentleman to have stated that his motion would not have been brought forward last year. Why, then, should it be brought forward now? That fact had been kept back, because the claimant must have felt that no hon. Member would undertake to controvert so conclusive an answer to a motion for a Committee of Inquiry, but that all must admit that the declaration was a bar to the claim. With regard to the funds yet unappropriated, there were still claimants to whom the objection he had urged against Mr. D'Arcy Talbot did not apply, and their claims were sufficient to absorb the whole of these funds; he was sure the House would not consent that those funds should be diminished by the admission of a claim which had already been negatived. On these grounds he trusted, if the hon. Member did not withdraw his motion, that the House would feel no difficulty in meeting it with a negative.

§ Mr. Praed
said, that the right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had offered no explanation of the extraordinary decision of the commissioners, that Mr. D'Arcy Talbot was entitled to the interest upon the amount of his claim, but not the principal. The money had been paid by the French Government to meet these claims, and, when the party now before the House had been first heard, it was under circumstances which made it impossible for him to bring forward that evidence upon which he now 12 relied. He admitted that with regard to the second inquiry into Mr. D'Arcy Talbot's claim, the right hon. Gentleman opposite had given a strong answer to the motion, if the commissioners had authority to require the deed of submission. He should like to know under what circumstances that deed had been signed. If it was an agreement which the commissioners had no authority to demand, he should be inclined to support the present motion.

§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the agreement was not confined to the petitioner now before the House, but was required to be signed by every one of the claimants; and with regard to the authority of the commissioners in that respect, it was expressly given to them by the Treasury Minister.

List of the AYES.
Alsager, Captain	Litton, E.
Archbold, R.	Lockhart, A. M.
Bagge, W.	Lowther, J. H.
Barry, G S.	Maher, J.
Bateman, J.	Maxwell, H.
Bellew, R. M.	Neeld, J.
Bodkin, J. J.	O'Brien, W. S.
Borthwick, P.	O'Connell, D.
Broadwood, H.	Palmer, G.
Brodie, W. B.	Plumptre, J. P.
Browne, R. D.	Power, J.
Bruges, W. H. L.	Praed, W. M
Bryan, G.	Round, C. G.
Butler, hon. Colonel	Round, J.
Conolly, E.	Shaw, right hon. F.
Darby, G.	Smith, A.
D'Israeli, B.	Vigors, N. A.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Walker, C. A.
Duncombe, hon. W.	Warburton, H.
Ellis, J.	White, S.
Fort, J.	Wyse, T.
Gore, O. J. R.	Yates, J. A.
Grattan, J.	Young, J.
Hayes, Sir E.	TELLERS.
Jackson, Sergeant	Mackinnon, W.
Law, hon. C. E.	O'Connell, M. J.

List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Blake, W. J.
Aglionby, Major	Blennerhassett, A.
Ainsworth, P.	Briscoe, J. I.
Bailey, J., jun.	Broadley, H.
Baines, E.	Brocklehurst, J.
Baring, H. B.	Brotherton, J.
Barnard, E. G.	Brownrigg, S.
Barrington, Viscount	Buller, Sir J. Y.
Bentinck, Lord G.	Busfield, W.
Bethell, R.	Byng, rt. hon. G.
Blackstone, W. S.	Carnac, Sir J. R.

Cavendish, hon. C.	Labouchere, rt. hn. H.
Chetwynd, Major	Lennox, Lord G.
Collier, J.	Lister, E. C.
Dalmeny, Lord	Lygon, hon. General
Dalrymple, Sir A.	Morpeth, Visct.
Davies, Colonel	O'Ferral, R. M.
Dick, Q.	Palmerston, Viscount
Divett, E.	Parker, J,
Dowdeswell, W.	Parnell, Sir H.
Duckworth, S.	Pattison, J.
Duke, Sir J.	Peel, right hon. Sir R.
Duncombe, hon. A.	Poulter, J. S.
Dundas, C. W. D.	Price, Sir R.
Dundas, hon. J. C.	Rice, right hon. T. S.
Dundas, hon. T.	Rich, H.
Egerton, W. T.	Richards, R.
Evans, Colonel	Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Farnham, E. B.	Russell, Lord J.
Fazakerley, J. N.	Smith, R. V.
Fergusson, rt. hon. C.	Somers, J. P.
Gaskell, James Milnes	Stanley, E. J.
Goddard, A.	Stanley, W. O.
Goring, H. D.	Strickland, Sir G.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.	Surrey, Earl of
Grimsditch, T.	Tancred, H. W.
Handley, H.	Thompson, Alderman
Hawkins, J. H.	Thornley, T.
Hayter, W. G.	Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Heathcote, J.	Turner, E.
Hinde, J.	Tyrrel, Sir J. T.
Hodgson, R.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Horsman, E.	Verney, Sir H.
Howick, Viscount	Vivian, R. H.
Hughes, W. B.	Vivian, Sir R. H.
Humphery, J.	Wall, C. B.
Hurt, F.	White, A.
Inglis, Sir R. H.	Williams, W. A.
Irton, S.	Wilshere, W.
James, W.
Johnstone, H.	TELLERS.
Johnson, General	Steuart, R.
Jones, J.	Wood, C.