HC Deb 19 July 1836 vol 35 cc314-41
Mr. Vernon Smith

rose for the purpose of moving the further consideration of the Report on the Charitable Trustees Bill, and he should have to suggest a few alterations which it had been considered necessary to introduce since the report was last under consideration. But in the first place he would draw the attention of the House to the principle of the Bill, and how it stood with regard to the details. In the Municipal Corporations Bill a clause was introduced vesting the charitable trusts of Corporations in the hands of fifteen persons, to be named by the Council, and chosen from among the burgesses, and that without any money or suitable qualification whatever. In that state the Bill passed through that House, without opposition to the clause, but not without considerable animadversion. In the present Bill he had endeavoured to meet the objections that were then raised. The House was aware that when the original Bill went up to the House of Lords, a discussion took place upon the principle of the clause, and on the motion of Lord Lyndhurst it was rejected, on the ground that there was a Bill on their Lordships' table, which had been presented by Lord Brougham, having for its object the future regulation of all charitable trusts. That Bill, however, had not been advanced in its stages in the last, nor had it been renewed in the present Session. The clause having been rejected, and no steps taken with respect to the Bill to which he had referred, the charitable trusts remained vested in the old Corporations, who had the management of them, until Parliament should otherwise provide. That upon the face of it was evidently a temporary pro vision, and therefore his Majesty's Government now introduced this Bill to supply what was admitted to be a deficiency in the Municipal Corporations Act. The Bill had been introduced in the tone and spirit of the clause which had been rejected. And here he must say, that it was with some surprise that he found, at this stage of the Bill, on the further consideration of the report, that objections were intended to be raised, by hon. Gentlemen, opposite to the principle. But to proceed:—The Bill proposed that the object should be effected by the elective principle, but not such a principle as that which was adopted by the House with respect to the political body—the principle contemplated by the Bill was not a new one, it was the same that had been adopted with respect to the choice of auditors and assessors in corporate towns, which he believed had gone over more quietly than other elections. Each burgess was to have the right of voting, but for only half the number of trustees to be elected, the principle of the Bill being to provide against an equal division of parties, as had occurred under the Municipal Corporations Act, and by this means the minority would be represented. The elective principle being, that the persons locally resident and interested in the charities should elect the parties to administer them. This principle was stated to be a valuable one when the subject was under discussion last year, as far as it applied to Local Commissioners, and was so stated to be by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tam-worth. He agreed with the right hon. Baronet, and if hereafter, a Central Board for charitable trusts throughout the empire should be appointed, that principle would not war with the principle of a Central Board. He apprehended that the right hon. Baronet himself would not be disposed to leave the matter entirely in the hands of the freemen, as was solicited in the petition the right hon. Baronet had that night presented from Coventry. It must be admitted, he thought, that as regarded the election of persons to administer the charitable trusts, the burgesses would be the proper persons to elect the trustees; and he thought the right hon. Baronet would not wish to leave that power in the hands of the persons to be benefitted, who were more or less paupers. The Lords proposed that the charitable trusts should remain in the hands of the old Corporations for another year, or until Parliament should provide otherwise. But, coupled with that clause, so leaving the charitable trusts in the hands of the old Corporations, was calculated to create a permanent, and not a temporary arrangement, namely, by the appointment of clerks and secretaries; although this did not lead of necessity to permanency, yet it looked like permanency. Against the principle of leaving there trusts in the hands of the old Corpo- rations, he thought he need not address much argument, because it must be apparent, that when, by the Municipal Corporations Act, it was declared that the old Corporations were unfit to carry on the business of the towns, it could not be maintained that it was desirable that they should retain the power of exercising and administering these charitable trusts. The Corporation Commissioners reported very strongly against the conduct of the Corporations with respect to charities, and, therefore, it was not proper that they should retain the control of them in their hands, and consequently that the trusts should not remain in the situation in which they were left by the Lords. He thought the House would not consent to continue the administration of the corporate funds in the hands of such bodies as the Municipal Corporations were described to be by the Commissioners, who were not more likely to exercise their power well, because they had been deprived of other power and authority; the trusts ought not to be left in their hands as means of vengeance, or to be exercised in displaying political spite; they ought not to be left in the hands of those who had been guilty of malversation with respect to them. By the amendment which had been made by the Lords to the Municipal Corporation Act Amendment Bill, to which it was uncertain whether the House of Commons would agree, the charitable trusts would remain under the administration of the Lord Chancellor after the 1st of August; but he hoped the House would adopt the present Bill, and then it would be of no consequence whether they agreed to the amendments made by the Lords or not. There was another principle of considerable importance, namely—the possession of the property under this Bill. The majority of the properties given to the Corporations were charged for charitable purposes. He thought that these properties ought to be vested in the town-councillors; or persons who were eligible to be town-councillors; because it was clear by this arrangement that the parties, in whom the charitable funds would be vested, would have no interest in increasing the property beyond the amount required for meeting the amount of the charitable trusts, while, on the other hand, the other party would have an interest in increasing it, in order to have the administration of a surplus. There was only one other point connected with the principle of the Bill, that he could not forbear mentioning, and that was The appointment of the mayor to be chairman of the charitable trustees. Perhaps the House would allow him, as no discussion had taken place on the subject, to state why he had thought it necessary to introduce the clause appointing the mayor chairman of the trustees. The Bill proposed to meet the case of parties being equally divided, and, in order to obviate this difficulty, it had been thought proper to provide, that the charitable trustees should consist of an odd number. He thought, therefore, that the mayor was not an objectionable person to fill the office of chairman. He was aware that the object of the Bill was to separate, as much as possible, the charitable trusts from the town-council; but, as there must be constant communications between the town-council and the trustees, it would be advisable to have some persons fit to carry on such communications between the council and the trustees, and it had been thought, ex necessitate, that the mayor was the best person to be introduced. It might be said, that the mayor was a political person, and he should be ready to hear any objections that might be raised to that proposition. It was a common practice in that House to make charges against Gentlemen who had the managing of Bills, as having a strong interest in wishing to favour their own party; he, however, repudiated such a charge, and he could show an instance, in his own case, to the contrary; for his hon. Colleague opposite knew that the mayor of the town which he had the honour to represent, was decidedly hostile to the party to which he (Mr. V. Smith) belonged. The mayor, as the chairman of the trustees, would not be entitled to have a second vote; he would preside over the deliberations of the body, and when equally divided, then only he would decide. If any fair objection could be raised to the nomination of the mayor to fill this office, he should be happy to listen to it; but the object of the Bill was only to frame an impartial tribunal for the administration of these trusts. The right hon. Baronet, on a former occasion, did him the justice to say, that he was actuated by the best motives, but that he had not followed out his intentions on this Bill; but he believed that his hon. Friend, the Secretary of State, fully participated in the belief that it would lead, to the impartial administration of these trusts. If the right hon. Baronet would chalk out any mode of getting rid of the mayor, he should have no objection to consider it. He was not sure that it might not be as well, if the appointment of the mayor was not approved of, that it might be left to the option of the trust to choose their own chairman, the council being the body to whom he would apply in all cases of emergency, difficulty, or necessity. He believed he had stated as much as was necessary, and should conclude by saying, that he intended to introduce one amendment, to provide that where suits were depending, and nearly concluded, they should not be vexatiously interfered with. The Bill would not interfere with the equitable jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery; this property would be available, as heretofore, to the control and authority of that Court.

Sir Robert Peel

was rather surprised at the remonstrance, gentle as it was, that the hon. Gentleman had made, as to taking the discussion of this Bill on the report. If the hon. Member had, at an early period some evening, asked leave to bring in the Bill, and invited a discussion, or had he pursued the same course on the second reading, and given ample notice of when the second reading would take place, then he might have expressed some surprise at the debate being taken on the report; but when leave was given to bring in the Bill after the hour of midnight, and that it was also read a second time on the 17th of June, at an hour nearer one in the morning than twelve at night, it having on both occasions escaped the vigilance of the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton), he thought that the hon. Member might spare his expression of surprise that a discussion should now take place. When the report was brought up at half past eleven o'clock, he (Sir R. Peel) made no objection, but he did take an objection to the principle of the Bill, and asked the Government to delay it, and he had said on the occasion—do not take silence as an acquiescence. He thought every precaution therefore, had been used, that the hon. Member should not be taken by surprise. The question was, whether the House would enact some temporary arrangement, as regarded the charitable trusts of corporate towns, or whether it would establish finally and irrevocably the principle, not only of popular election, but an indissoluble connexion between these municipal bodies and the administrators of those charitable trusts The Bill before the House professed to be a permanent measure, not only from its professions, but from the nature of its enactments. If they once vested these reversionary interests in a popular body, and the interests of contingent remainders on these estates, they would be making an arrangement to place them practically beyond the reach of control, and a political body would have the control over these trusts. He agreed with the hon. Gentleman, that it would be preposterous to revive the old Corporations for the purpose of administering these trusts, and those who were opposed to the present Bill were desirous of disuniting the administration of the trusts from a political body, giving, as those who agreed with him on this subject did give, a strong proof of their disinterestedness. The power would be vested, if the amendment of the Lords to the Municipal Corporation Act Amendment Bill was not agreed to, in the Lord Chancellor; and if held by him temporarily, and until some permanent arrangement could be come to by Parliament, and until Parliament could consider what the arrangement might be, although the Lord Chancellor was a political character connected with the Administration, yet even upon that understanding as to the exercise of the trust, he would rather prefer it, than consent to pass this Bill, and thus establish a permanent connexion between political bodies and those who were to nave the administration of charitable trusts. In the other case they would have the advantage by letting the matter stand thus, that it would be merely provisional; for no appointment of secretaries and clerks could be considered as making the arrangement of a permanent character, and it would be open to Parliament, in the next Session, to consider the whole subject of these trusts, and make some permanent arrangement with respect to them. He implored the House to consider the necessity of making some provisional arrangement with the view of preventing a connexion taking place between charitable trustees and these political bodies. The hon. Gentleman had referred to some passages in the Report of the Committee, tending to show the manner in which the charitable funds had been misapplied in the hands of the late corporations to political and interested purposes. He would, with the permission of the House read an extract from the Report of the same Commissioners on the same subject:— Other specific trusts are connected with charitable institutions and the administration of charity funds which are under the control of the corporate authorities. Here, again, we find mismanagement and misappropriation to a considerable extent. The patronage connected with these trusts has in numerous in-stances been exercised by the corporate authorities to gain or reward votes both at the municipal and Parliamentary elections. The instances given in the report are sufficient to illustrate the character of the abuses which are connected with specific trusts and patronage. They not only prove that the object of the trust has been lost sight of, but that a provision for the poorer classes of the community in the hands of the corporate authorities, has become a source of corrupt influence. Was the House then to remain perfectly satisfied that under the system of popular election, which had been introduced into the management of corporation affairs, they would have an effectual security against such perversion of charitable trusts, and to precisely similar purposes, for the future? By the present constitution of corporate bodies, the members were almost invited to take part in politics. Although popular control provides many remedies for abuse, yet, where the passions were inflamed, and the struggle for political predominance was obstinate,—he would ask, did popular control afford any security against the perversion of power; and was it not likely that the same political feelings which had been roused at the elections of Members of Parliament, or members of the town-council would prevail when the same constituency was called upon to elect trustees to administer funds by which they expected to be benefitted? All the proceedings of this House had been directed to the removal of this abuse, because where patronage was possessed by a political body, it had been used for political purposes. It was no compensation for this evil to be assured, that in one certain borough the Whig party might predominate, and in another the Tory party might rule, over the administration of charitable trust estates, and that, therefore, on the aggregate, power would be apportioned fairly between them. The objection which he had to this principle was of a much higher kind. He had the same objection to the operation of political influence and patronage in the case of these charitable trusts, whether that influence were in the old Corporations or the new. He desired to prevent the future application of charitable trust-funds to political purposes, and to preclude the possibility of corruption in their administration from flourishing. The evidence already laid on the table of the House, in the Reports of the Charity Commissioners, fully showed, that placing the management of charity etates in the hands of individuals chosen by popular election afforded no check to practices which all must condemn. It was clear that where patronage existed, it would be exercised by either party for their own purposes; and this ought to be prevented, whether the patronage were vested in the Government or in popular bodies. In order to show the intimate connexion which by this Bill would exist between the town-council and the new trustees of charitable funds, he would merely remark that the constituency which was to elect them was to be precisely the same, and that the qualification for a town-councillor and for a trustee were also the same, with the exception that a clergyman might be a trustee, though he might not be a member of the town-council. Now supposing the parties to be fairly balanced in the election of trustees, and that half the number represented one party in the borough and the other half represented the other party in the borough, yet, as they were subject to annual change under the Bill, the one party or the other might gain, for a period, at least, the preponderance: and it was this liability to a constant change in the preponderance of the body that in his judgment formed one of the greatest evils of this Bill, and against which he wished to guard. By its provisions abuses would be perpetuated, though the power were transferred from one party to another. Would not those powers continue to be used for the promotion of political purposes? Why, the Bill provided that the town-council (a political body) should have a control over the trustees; for the books of the charities were to be always open to them, and they were to have, at all seasonable hours, access to them. The Bill contained another important provision, which went to establish even a still closer connexion between the corporate body and the charitable body—a provision to which he especially wished to direct the attention of the hon. Member for Southwark. He believed it to be a principle established beyond all doubt, that where there existed a surplus of a charity estate, over and above the amount specially directed by the donor to be applied to any particular purpose, in such a case the surplus should be disposed of as nearly as possible in accordance with the intention of the original donor—in other words, where by lapse of time, by change of circumstances, or from any other cause, the charity estates and revenues had increased, that in such case the increased revenues ought to be applied and devoted as nearly to the objects which the original founder had in view as might be consistent with the existing state of society, and with that view applications had sometimes been made for an Act of Parliament. But, what did the Bill propose to do with any existing surplus? The Bill enacted, that in every case in which the hereditaments or personal estate of which the charitable trustees of any of the said boroughs now stand seized and possessed, are chargeable for the purposes of the trust with a fixed sum, or with a charge wholly satisfied by less than the whole of the rents and profits of the real estate, or of the interest and dividends of the personal estate of which they are so seized or possessed, the whole estate was to go—how did the House suppose?—not to be applied according to the principle he had stated, to purposes of benevolence, of charity, or of education, as the case might be, but, "the whole estate, right, interest, title, powers, and liabilities of the said trustees in the said hereditaments and personal estate, should, immediately after the passing of this Act, be vested in the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of the said borough, subject in the first instance to the charge created for the purposes of the trust." The clause did not contain one word as to the application of the surplus funds to purposes of charity, benevolence, or education. On the contrary the remainder was to be paid over to the borough fund, which was applicable to the purposes of lighting and watching. Provided there was a specific charge made in a will when that was to be considered as satisfied, the whole was to be transferred to the corporate body. Again, it ought not to be forgotten that the freemen, and those most interested in the charity funds, were not given, by this Bill, any voice in the election of the trustees, but the choice was given to those who, by establishing a certain fixed charge, as in the terms of the clause he had read, might gain the surplus, and by it save their own pockets from contributing to otherwise borough rates. On the construction of the clause many great and important questions arose. He would take one case out of many that might be cited. In Stratford-upon-Avon, for instance, the property of the cor- poration consists of two estates, one called the guild estate, and the other the college estate. This property was vested in the corporation by a charter of 7 Edward 6th The maintenance of an almshouse and a free grammar-school was expressly mentioned in the charter as the main object of this grant. The charter directed that 4d. each should be paid to the poor men in the alms-house, and that an annual stipend of 20l. should be paid to the schoolmaster. A further sum of 20l. was also, by the charter, directed to be paid to the vicar. It appeared from the Report, that the vicar complained to the Corporation Commissioners, that the charity trustees, did not make any increase to his stipend commensurate to the change in the times, the increased duties of his office, and the increased price of provisions. The Commissioners had, therefore, to inquire whether or not the claim of the vicar for an increase was well-founded; and in their Report they said— We think there is an obvious distinction between a direction to pay a specific stipend for the express purpose of maintaining an institution, and a direction to pay a stipend to an individual without reference to an object to be maintained by such payment. In the former instance we conceive that the payments must be increased to the full extent of the revenues granted, if such additions become necessary for the proper and effectual support of the institution. In the latter case, the whole obligation is discharged by the payment of the specific sums directed. On these grounds they held that the vicar had no claim whatever, though there existed a surplus. This was a case in point, and many other cases presented similar difficulties. He could not consent to a proposition embodied in the Bill, which, without carrying out the intentions of the original donors, transferred the means of patronage to a political party,—until, at all events, the subject shall have received much more consideration than as yet had been given to it. Let hon. Members bear in mind what took place last year with reference to this subject. A Select Committee was then appointed to examine and consider the evidence contained in the Reports of the charity Commissioners,—to devise the means proper to be adopted (and to report the same) for the more prompt, efficient, and economical administration of the charity funds of the country. The Committee made their report, in which, after stating their hope that early in the year 1837 the whole of the Reports of the Commissioners would be received, they suggested a remedy for the evils of the system which prevailed. That remedy, however, did not apply the surplus charitable revenues to the lighting, cleansing, or watching the corporate town in possession of the charitable estates, but had regard to the objects contemplated by the original founders. Neither did they recommend that the town-council should have the entire control (as under this Bill they would have) of the charitable funds. They reported:— The last head of inquiry upon which your Committee are to report their opinion,—namely, the mode by which charity funds may be more efficiently, promptly, and economically administered,—comprises many considerations of great interest and difficulty. When it is considered that these funds amount to about 1,000,000l. per annum, it is obvious that their proper management and right application are matters of national concern, the more especially as the objects of their appropriation embrace, to a very large extent, the education and comfort of the people. The Committee, then, recommend that the superintendence, and in certain cases the administration, of all property devoted to charitable uses should be intrusted to a permanent Board of three Commissioners, or some other independent authority, on whom should be imposed the duty of superintendence and control over the administration of all property devoted to charitable uses; that such Board should have authority to summon before them all persons concerned in the administration of any charitable institution or funds; in case of necessity to appoint—and upon adequate cause established to remove—trustees; to prevent the sale, mortgage or exchange of charity property without their concurrence; to take care that all charitable funds be invested upon real or Government securities; and generally to authorise such arrangements as shall appear calculated to promote the object of the founder, and in cases in which that object is useless or unattainable, to suggest such other appropriation as may appear desirable. The House must observe that the recommendations of the Committee were wholly at variance with the provisions of this Bill, which bore no similarity to the Bill introduced by a noble and learned Lord in another place, who had devoted much attention to the subject of charities, and whose state of health, which he regretted, had prevented his presence in his place during the present Session—he alluded to Lord Brougham. That noble and learned Lord introduced a Bill on this subject into the other House, and his plan was, that a Board of Commissioners should be created, to consist of the lord President of the Council, of the Lord Privy Seal, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and of three other Commissioners, to be paid a salary and to be appointed under the sign manual. The noble Lord's Bill was silent as to placing charitable trusts under the management of individuals chosen by popular election; neither did it propose to appropriate the surplus revenues to the borough funds; on the contrary, it empowered those Commissioners to confer with the local authorities, for the purpose of applying the funds to the extension of charity and education. With all these difficulties in the way of a satisfactory settlement of this question, would any man venture to affirm that it would be wise, in the month of July, to come to a permanent arrangement, and especially an arrangement vesting the election of the trustees in the popular body? It would be much better to make some temporary arrangement, and to take up the subject early next Session. He wholly and entirely disclaimed any desire to have charitable funds applied to any political purposes whatsoever—but he objected to any permanent arrangement being now made, which would preclude full and ample consideration of the whole matter. What permanent arrangement ought finally to be made he was not prepared to say, but he must object, at this period of the Session, to proceeding with a Bill giving the control of those funds to popular bodies, and so completely at variance with the terms of the Report of the Committee, and with the provisions of the Bill introduced into the other House of Parliament by Lord Brougham. He did not impute to the hon. Gentleman opposite any desire to gain a party advantage. The question was one of a most important character; and, hereafter individuals would look to see how far the intentions of charitable benefactors of former times were regarded, and on that in a great degree would depend the extension of a similar bounty by benevolent individuals of the present age. He entreated the House to pause, and, by making some temporary arrangement, to reserve to themselves the opportunity of more fully considering the subject, and of carrying out the intentions of the original donors.

Lord John Russell

In considering the reasons given by the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), for disagreeing to this Bill, we cannot, I think, lay out of sight the question as to whose management these charit- able trusts are to be committed. I consider that a most important point for us to determine; not that I mean to imply that the right hon. Gentleman has proposed any plan by which these trusts may in future be fairly administered for the benefit of those for whose advantage they were originally intended; but the right hon. Gentleman has asked us not to agree to this Bill, which is, I think, free from objection, and he has not proposed to us any other alternative; leaving it to be supposed that if we should agree, on his authority, to postpone this measure, we thereby agree to the propositions already made by the House of Lords—that the charitable trusts should be continued in the same hands as those in which they have hitherto remained. Now, I cannot but appeal to this House on the same grounds as those chosen by the right hon. Gentleman, and ask them to look to the view and intention with which these charities were founded; and in the same spirit he appeared to threaten the House that future donors would be careful how they left charitable bequests, if these trusts were allowed to be improvidently administered for other purposes than those to which they ought to have been applied. Sir, the purposes for which these charities were intended were, no doubt, great and benevolent; but we find by the Report of the Charity Commissioners, that so far from having been well applied, they have been applied, in numerous instances, to the promotion of political purposes, to advancing political parties, or for the sake of promoting the interest of one candidate for a seat in Parliament in preference to another; and we have now laid a plan before the House, the alternative of which is to leave these funds for another year in the same hands as those by which they have been thus mismanaged and misapplied. It is stated by the Commissioners of Charity—and it is important to call the attention of the House to the fact, after what has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman—that a solicitor of much experience in Corporations alleged that he had often known instances in which applications were made by individuals for the relief, under the 4l. charity, left by Sir Thomas White, that the poll-book of the previous election was produced before the applicant received any payment, A freeman was asked upon one occasion for whom he voted, and the answer not being in ac- cordance with the wishes of the persons who had the distribution of this fund, this person was informed, "as you have not put any water in the mill you cannot expect any out of it." A freeman applied in the year 1833 for 4l., under Sir Thomas White's charity, and when he stated that he had voted for Messrs. Ellice and Bulwer, the alderman who presided over the disbursement of those funds, "You had better, then, apply to Messrs. Ellice and Bulwer for the 4l." The same course was adopted with respect to the charity in Northampton and other places. It is unnecessary to say, that Sir Thomas White was a truly respectable individual, and a member of the Merchant Tailors' Company, who, having amassed a large fortune by industry, expended it chiefly in acts of liberality and munificence for the benefit of industrious tradesmen, and to advance the cause of learning and science; and when it is said that future donors will be careful how they leave these charitable trusts, I do ask whether it is likely that Sir Thomas White intended that no man who voted for Messrs. Ellice and Bulwer should have the benefit of that part of the charity which was left by him in the city of Coventry? Yet this is in effect the proposition for which the right hon. Gentleman seems anxious to secure the sanction of the House. Now, if the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that the Bill which we propose is utterly defective in principle, and cannot be adopted, and had said that he was ready to propose, or could, a Bill which was quite unexceptionable and free from every taint of party politics, being framed solely with the view of the due administration of these charitable funds, then I might say, "Do not adopt the plan which we have received from the House of Lords, and do not continue these trusts for another year under the control of these corrupt Corporations;" but I should say, "Reject the Bill of my hon. Friend and adopt the better proposition of the right hon. Gentleman, that places the management of these funds in hands where they are sure to be well and safely administered." But, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman says nothing of the sort, he confines his objections to certain grounds of doubt as to the effect of the working of the Bill, and which grounds have nothing in them to prevent this Bill from being considered in Committee, where its details may be considered and amended. The right hon. Gentleman argues, that it is extremely objectionable that these trusts should be kept in such a manner as to place them in the hands of one political party, or for the purpose of giving one party an advantage over another. Now, that danger by no means follows as a consequence from this Bill; and the proposition now made is precisely the same as the principle which was laid down in the Corporation Bill of last year, with respect to the election of auditors and assessors, and in which, in order to give the minority a fair chance in the election of these officers, we laid down the principle, that unless the candidate whose opinions were in accordance with those entertained by the majority of the electors had more than double the number of votes given for the candidate of the minority, he should not be elected. I know several boroughs in which this principle has exactly answered the end of its application; and I know one borough in particular, which has a very liberal Corporation, and in which the majority holding liberal opinions, was a very strong one indeed, where the auditor who stood highest on the list was a Tory. The liberal party divided their votes, and one party having 500 votes and the other 400, the candidate of the minority had 400 in his favour, whilst the others had for one candidate in their interest 300, and for another 200; so that the fact was that two gentlemen of one party having started the candidate who stood highest on the poll represented the minority of the electors. And the objection to such a plan as that which we now propose comes from men who, year after year, for twenty and thirty years successively, permitted abuses such as I have described to continue—permitted these charities to be perverted in such a manner, that if a poor householder applied for relief, be he ever so industrious, be he as worthy of the advantages which they conferred as he might, and be so reduced to a state of unmerited poverty by misfortunes over which he could have no control, yet, if he voted for Messrs. Ellice and Bulwer, he was deprived of the benefit it was intended to bestow on him. And this is the system which the right hon. Baronet opposite connived at; for during the period that his party was in power, we never heard of any proposition for the correction of those abuses; and, moreover, we never received any thing but opposition and resistance from that party when the subject of those corporate funds, which were applied to the most corrupt and unworthy purposes, Was brought under the consideration of the House. Now, then, I ask, when a mode of election is proposed of twelve persons, for instance, in which it is probable that six will be chosen by one party and six by the other, is it fair for them to impute to us that we are proposing a political measure. I am glad to hear his approval thus given of the inference which I have stated, and should be rejoiced to have recalled to my mind all those instances in which the right hon. Baronet made motions for a reform with regard to these Charitable Trusts; in which he showed that Sir Thomas White's charity had been abused in Northampton, Coventry, and various other places for Tory purposes; and proposed to substitute a fair method of election. If the right hon. Baronet had proposed any such plan, all I can say is, it must have been brought in very quietly. For I am quite sure that, if any announcement of it was made, all the Reformers of this House would have come down in a body to support him against those of his friends who might have opposed him on that occasion. I do not consider it advisable to intrust these charitable trusts to the municipal councils; and when the Bill last year was under consideration, I stated, that what might be, and in all probability would be, a political body, should not be allowed to have any control over these concerns. But I certainly was of opinion that the mayor, chosen as he would be under the new state of things, should preside over the body of trustees, because, in the first place, he stands alone in an eminently responsible situation; and in the next place, because, as he is to act with those who are equally divided in number as to political sentiments, it is impossible but that any political partiality on the part of the mayor at the head of these charitable trustees should be pointed out. Therefore I think, being so marked, so pointed out, and being a man trusted with the confidence of his fellow-citizens, as well as, no doubt, a man of particular political opinions, yet one, as we must suppose, of independent character, and being moreover a man having to act with persons of different political opinions, we may, I say, fairly trust the mayor, as one who will act properly in this capacity, and whose conduct will not stand in great chance of being impugned. But the right hon. Baronet says, that by the mode of election which we propose we give to the majority an undue preponderance over the minority. Why, I have already shown that in the case of the election of auditor, the person succeeding has been the representative of a minority of the inhabitants; but if there be found, on experience, to be any weight in the objection of the right hon. Baronet, and if danger is apprehended on this hand from the result of the two first elections, I am quite ready to adopt any of two or three plans by which the difficulty can be obviated. One of them is, that instead of obliging one-third, namely, those who have the smallest number of votes, to go out at the end of the third year, that they should go out by lots, or that the third should be composed of those who had the largest and smallest number of votes. Another is, that all—no matter by what number chosen—shall continue for the same period. In short, there are numerous ways to cure this defect, and totally prevent any such danger. There is another matter which the right hon. Baronet laid great stress upon; but, unless I mistake the object and scope of the clause to which he alluded, I think he has not judged correctly of the power which it gives to the municipal bodies. The cases for which that clause was intended to provide were those which had not been sufficiently provided for in the Municipal Bill. One of the cases was, where a corporate body was left a certain estate, with a condition attached to it that a certain portion should be applied to corporate purposes. Now, let the case of a certain estate be taken which produced 1,000l. a-year, and the condition annexed to which was, that four alms-men should be paid two pounds a-year each; would it be right, that because this fixed payment of eight pounds was left for the benefit of four alms-men, that the remaining 992l. should likewise be placed under the disposal of the charitable trustees? That was the class of cases which the clause was intended to meet, since they had not been sufficiently provided for by the Municipal Act. Where a fixed sum is only now chargeable on an estate for charitable purposes, it is intended that when all other purposes shall be satisfied the property shall be placed in the hands of the corporate body, and not in those of the trustees. Undoubtedly that is no new provision; it is one, in accordance, I believe, with the decisions in the Courts of Law and Equity; at all events it follows as a natural consequence from our laws. The right hon. Gentleman may say, and to a certain extent I concur in the view, that it is possible that where a certain amount of property has been left for a particular purpose (such, for instance, as to keep a school), that we ought for the future to interpret such a legacy with a view to what was the provision of the donor, and not be satisfied with seeing that the mere letter of the will is complied with. Though, as I have said, I agree in general with that view, I think it ought to be carried into effect with great caution. I think there is great danger in giving unlimited power by Act of Parliament or otherwise, to say, "such was the intention of the donor," or to say "we must apply this charity to a greater extent than it is at present." This however, which is an important question, does not come fairly under discussion on this Bill, but it is one which must be considered by Parliament when the whole question of charitable trustees is submitted to it. That is a question which applies not merely to estates in the hands of corporations, but to estates in the hands of all other charitable trustees whatever. I certainly was much surprised at the argument advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, that, because Lord Brougham intended to bring in a Bill which contemplated a general supervision of all charitable trusts, they were, therefore, to postpone the present measure. Why, the right hon. Baronet has himself stated, that no such general supervision as that Bill contemplated was necessary, and that extra powers in the Secretary of State would be quite sufficient to answer every purpose. In fact, the right hon. Baronet threw out so much of doubt respecting it, that I had a right to expect that it would meet with the right hon. Baronet's opposition. The right hon. Baronet now seems to think it a very excellent Bill, as he can use it to defeat the present measure, whilst the other might be without difficulty either taken up by him or be abandoned in a future Session, as might best suit his views. This Bill is directed only to a particular object; it will not at all interfere with any general measure that may be brought forward in a future Session, and I see no reason to reject it, unless some better plan be proposed. Indeed, the only alternative offered us is, either to involve the management of corporation charities in Chancery, or to concur in the spirit of the amendments of the House of Lords, and continue the corporate trust funds for another year in the management of the old corporators—who have done so little for education, and so much for Tory candidates. The arguments against the principle of the Bill have no foundation in point of fact. The objections are objections of detail only, which could be remedied in Committee, and under these circumstances I must call on the House to go on with the Bill, and after having heard the objections made, to compare it, as regarded the means to effect its object, viz., the management of corporate charitable trusts apart from political purposes, with the no plan of the right hon. Baronet, and with the abuses which existed under the old corporations. If the House institute that comparison, they will be ready, I am sure, to go along with me in opinion that this Bill will be an adequate remedy for serious evils.

Sir James Graham

thought, that hon. Members on his side of the House had some reason to complain of the statements of the noble Lord. It was not correct to charge those on that side of the House with being pledged, or with entertaining any desire, to uphold the abuses of existing corporations respecting these funds. It was not denied that much mismanagement and abuse had existed under the old corporations, nor that the time was now come when a sufficient remedy must be provided. All that was wished was, that a well-digested, not a tardy scheme should be adopted, and that if, as a temporary arrangement, the suggestion of the House of Lords did not meet the views of the noble Lord, he should, until Parliament should be able to provide more efficient general measures, place the temporary management and control of these funds in the hands of one of his own colleagues, the Lord Chancellor, in whom the noble Lord surely must have confidence, and in whom, from his high legal responsibility he (Sir J. Graham), though not too ready to place confidence in the noble Lord's colleague, was, in this respect, well disposed fully to confide. Why should not a temporary arrangement of this kind be assented to, when the very professed object of the Bill was to satisfy all parties that no political advantage should be given to either party. There was, nevertheless, a very strong feeling entertained by one party, that a predominance would, in point of fact, be given by the Bill to the party opposed to them. The trustees were to be chosen by the same persons as those who chose the town-council; the town-council was to fix the number of the charitable trustees; the presiding officer of the town-council was to be the presiding officer of the charitable trustee, and in the event of an equality amongst them even, he would give the preponderance to the wall of his own political party; and yet it was pretended to say, that no advantage was given by the Bill to the predominant political party in the borough. These details, however, were nothing to the great question of principle at stake, and which they had to guard against, lest the Bill which the noble Lord brought forward as a remedy for old abuses should turn out to be nothing more nor less than a means of perpetuating them for the future, under the specious garb of equality. It was said, however, that for any abuses under the Bill, there was a remedy by a suit in the Court of Chancery; but that was not Lord Brougham's opinion, and he was a high authority on the subject; for, said that noble and learned Lord, alluding to the measure which was at that period before the House, for settling charitable trusts belonging to corporations, "If this property be not settled this Session, the trustees may sell it, and there would be very great difficulty to get it back. It is true that a remedy may be had in the Court of Chancery; but the proceedings in that court are so operose, that the trustees do not care for them." Now, all they (the opponents of the Bill) asked was, that the operation of these trustees should be suspended for one year; if the noble Lord rejected that, he had the alternatives already mentioned. He must repeat, that the principle of vesting in the borough fund the "surplus," a fashionable term of modern date, of a fund on which a sum was charged for charitable purposes, was neither more nor less than giving a benefit to the rich at the expense of the poor.

The Solicitor-General

said, the object of the Bill was to secure fair and impartial trustees. If it did not secure that, he would admit, it was a failure; but if it did give that security, he must support it against the no plan of the other side. It was said, that this would identify the town-council and the charitable trustees. He would admit the constituency was the same, but the mode of election was so different, that it would give a full and fair representation of the minority as well as the majority. They were told, that they had the alternative of placing those trusts under the care of the Lord Chancellor. No doubt the Lord Chancellor had the power of appointing trustees, but not, however, in his political character as Chancellor, but in his character as a Judge of. the Court of Chancery, after a suit had been commenced in the ordinary way. Upon the advantage of seeking a settlement of property in that Court, he need not remind the House about the litigation for the oyster, which terminated in the fish being consumed, and the litigant parties were left to contest the choice of the upper or under shell. But suppose it was to be sent to the Court of Chancery, it would be referred to the Master to name trustees, and the probability was, that he would name six from one side, and six from the other; and thus do, at a great expense of time and money, what the present Bill enabled the parties to do for themselves. As to the mayor being at the head of these trustees, he did not see that it was in any degree objectionable. There must be an odd member somewhere, and the mayor would have only the casting vote when parties were equally balanced; and he knew no person better qualified to exercise this power than the mayor. They were told, that this was at variance with Lord Brougham's Bill. But Lord Brougham's Bill related altogether to a different question. This Bill only dealt with charitable property in the hands of corporations; Lord Brougham's had reference to the great mass of property invested for charitable purposes in the country. It was said, that the 8th Clause would take that which belonged to the poor, and give it to the rich. If it could be shown, that it would take even one shilling from the poor, he would withdraw his support from the Bill. If there were any obscurity in the clause, he was sure his hon. Friend would not object to any amendment which would make it more clear. It was clear, ex concesso, that the old corporators were not the fittest trustees, but, except what this Bill proposed, there were no better proposed. If any better or more impartial could be named, he was ready to adopt the proposition for their appointment; but as there were none, he must support this Bill.

Mr. William Williams

had no objection to the general enactments, of the Bill, but he would wish that the freemen, who, as in the case of Coventry, had a great interest in the corporate property, should be allowed to vote for trustees. If the right hon. Baronet opposite would move, that the freemen of Coventry should have a right to vote for the charitable trustees, he would willingly support the proposition.

Mr. Harvey

said, that the present Bill was the inevitable result of corporate reform, and whatever objections might be urged to it, and those objections were not few, he nevertheless thought that any change from the former system must be an improvement. His object was to see that the charitable funds should in future be protected and honestly administered, and any corruption in their management would not be the less objectionable to him, because it might be practised by Whigs in the place of Tories. He was pleased to hear the hon. and learned Solicitor-General in the course of his speech ridicule the idea of any application being made to the court of which he was so great an ornament, for the purpose of getting property administered. The hon. and learned Member's remarks on that point confirmed the opinion which he had always entertained; but he wondered that that hon. and learned Member, being as he was a law reformer, should have slumbered during two sessions with all the weight of his practical knowledge on his mind, and permitted every opportunity to pass for making some experiment in that House for the abatement of what must be considered by all persons as a great nuisance. The question for the House now to discuss was, to what hands should the administration of charitable property belonging to corporations be confided? In his opinion, that property should be confined strictly to the charitable objects for which it was granted by our ancestors, and the medium through which that property had hitherto been distributed, ought as little as possible to be departed from. If a donor had given land or money to a corporation, constituting that body the guardians of the property, he did not think it would be right to place its guardianship in an entirely different body. Therefore, he thought it desirable, if practicable, that the administration of the charitable funds should be continued in corporate hands. But then it would be necessary that the corporations should be made subject to some supervision; otherwise party and political feeling might interfere in the management of the charitable funds. It had been said, that nothing could be better than to give the mayor a control over the funds. That officer had been described as a wonderfully impartial person, and blind like justice, Now, in his opinion, of all the partisans in a town the mayor was the most decided. Still, if the corporations should be placed under the supervision of some authority, some permanent and responsible board, hereafter to be created, he should have no objection to leave the administration of charitable property in their hands. With respect to the 8th Clause, he must observe, that the object he wished to see accomplished, would not be attained by that provision. It frequently occurred, that property left for a charitable purpose some centuries ago, had since greatly increased in value. The best mode of proceeding in such a case was, he thought, not to distribute the augmented property among precisely the same number of persons to which its application was originally restricted, but as far as possible to extend the number of persons interested in the charitable fund, and to confine its administration to such objects as were evidently in conformity with the intentions of the donor. He would illustrate his meaning by referring to the instance of Sir T. Morden's charity. The property originally left to constitute that charity was sufficient to allow of forty decayed merchants receiving the sum of 30l. a-year each. The property soon accumulated in value, so that every person benefited by the charity might have received 40l. a-year, and at the present moment as much as 70l. a-year. The question then was, whether 70l. a-year should be given to forty persons, or whether the number of persons benefited by the charity should be increased to sixty, and 50l. a-year given to each. He thought the latter would be the better course to adopt. Such, at any rate, would be a fairer mode of proceeding than that which had been followed with respect to a charity at Colchester. Some benevolent individual had, many centuries ago, left a certain amount of property, the produce of which was to be distributed in the following way:—1s. 6d. per week to be given to five poor persons, and the remainder of the revenue (7s. 6d.) to be paid over weekly to a chaplain who undertook the care of these poor persons' souls. In those days money was of considerably greater value than at present, and 1s. 6d. per week probably enabled the five poor objects of the charity to supply themselves with many of the necessaries of life. But the revenue derivable from the charitable property soon swelled to 400l. a-year, and the clergyman took the whole amount, minus 1s. 6d. a-week, which continued to be paid to five poor persons. The matter was, however, litigated; but the Court pronounced in favour of the clergyman, because the souls of those poor persons had to be taken care of by him; and decided that 1s. 6d. per week was enough for their bodies. So much for the tender mercies of a court of equity! With respect to the Bill under consideration, he would propose that nothing contained in it should give to the corporations greater rights or interests than they otherwise would have. If such a provision as that could not be adopted, he should certainly vote against the Bill. He concluded by repeating, that he was opposed to corruption, whether practised by Whig or Tory; but he had hoped, that, in the sacred cause of charity, and in a matter so deeply affecting the interests of the poor as that under the consideration of the House, all party feeling would have been extinguished. He confessed, however, that in this particular he had been much disappointed.

Mr. Pemberton

concurred with the hon. Member who last spoke, in thinking it a pity that so much party spirit had been displayed on the present occasion. With respect to the Bill before the House, the question to be considered was, whether it contained the best plan that could be devised for the management of charitable property? The great evil of the old system was, that political considerations mixed themselves up with the administration of funds intended for the purposes of charity. Now, the plain remedy for that evil was, he thought, to take the administration of charitable funds entirely out of political hands; but this the Bill would not do. He considered it very objectionable to make the charitable trustees subject to removal and election, as proposed by the present Bill. He believed it would be found, in nine cases out of ten, that the electors of those trustees were more interested in the mal-administration than in the good-administration of charitable property The great abuse of the charitable funds was their application to the relief of the poor-rates; and as, under the present Bill the electors of the trustees would be the rate-payers, they would be directly interested in diverting the charitable funds from their proper purpose, in order to exonerate themselves from the payment of some por- tion of the poor-rates. He differed in opinion from the hon. and learned Solicitor-General, who thought that a Master Chancery, if he had to appoint charitable trustees, would choose six men of one party, and six men of the opposite party. He, on the contrary, felt convinced that a Master in Chancery, having such a duty to perform, would select twelve men wholly unconnected with borough politics, and saving no direct interest in the amount of the borough-rates. He considered it of importance that the trustees should not be subject to removal and election, but that a regular and permanent system should be established. He, therefore, felt bound to oppose the present Bill.

Mr. Lechmere Charlton

admitted, that f no bill on this subject passed into law, the result would be a series of expensive suits in Chancery, by which the objects of the charities would be greatly prejudiced. On the other hand, he feared that the effect of passing the present Bill would be, by the casting vote which it gave to the mayors, to vest in them the whole of the charitable estates in the kingdom. He saw nothing improper in the proposal to allow the late corporators to have the control of charitable property for one year longer.

The Attorney General

would occupy but a very small portion of the time of the House, and indeed after the explanations that had been already given with respect to this Bill, but little remained to be said. It could not be denied that the present state in which charities were placed was most deplorable. The object of this Bill was to rescue charities from their present most lamentable condition. If the House did nothing to remedy these evils they would be guilty of great injustice. If they did not adopt the system proposed by this Bill, the consequence would be, that the charities must either be administered by the individual members of the old corporations, or they would fall entirely into the hands of the Lord Chancellor. It was allowed on all sides that these individuals, the members of the old corporations, had discharged their trusts by no means beneficially towards the public. Why not rescue these charities from maladministration? These trustees had shown themselves unworthy of the trust reposed in them, and it was of the last importance that power should be taken from them. What would be the consequence if this Bill were thrown out? The arguments that were used on the present occasion would hold equally good in another Session of Parliament. They were told, that if they would only leave this power to those individuals one year longer, that something would be done at the end of the year, or at least before the Session expired. But they might go on this way from year to year, and he was afraid (he did not wish to impute improper motives, but he had a suspicion) that there was a lurking desire on the part of hon. Members opposite to perpetuate the misrule of those charitable trustees who had so disgraced themselves. What did the abuses complained of arise from? Was it not from the old corporations—the system of self-election, where there was no control or responsibility? What did this Bill propose to do? It placed these charities under popular control—it provided that all the acts of the trustees should be published, and that they should be subject to the examination and revision of their fellow-townsmen. The allegations that the abuses of the old system would be continued under the present Bill were wholly unfounded. The object of the Bill was the obtaining the most fit and proper persons to fill the situation of trustees, and that he thought could be best attained by giving the rate-payers the power of election. He hoped that hon. Members opposite would not divide the House on the Bill, but that it would pass unanimously, and that it would receive elsewhere, notwithstanding what had fallen from an hon. Member opposite, that support and consideration which it deserved.

Mr. Scarlett

could assure the hon. and learned Attorney-General that there was no desire, either on his part or on the part of those hon. Members with whom he acted, to perpetuate the misrule of charitable trustees. All they desired was, that this should be a fair Bill, and that it should provide that charities should be fairly administered. He protested against a measure of so much importance being i brought on at so late a period of the Session, when it was impossible that it could receive that full and calm consideration which it required.

Colonel Sibthorp

had come down to the House with the intention of voting that the further consideration of this Re- port be deferred till this day three months, and he had heard no argument sufficient to induce him to alter his opinion. He would therefore move that the Report be received that day three months.

Mr. George F. Young

said, that the professed object of the Bill was to relieve charitable trustees from being swayed by political influence, if the Bill had that effect, he certainly should have felt bound to support it. He regretted that after the most attentive consideration which he had given to the Bill itself, and to the arguments of hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House, he found himself quite unable to come to such a conclusion. He felt, therefore, bound to oppose the ill.

Mr. Vernon Smith

feared that it was an opposition to the general principle of the Bill that was lurking in the bosoms of the hon. Gentlemen opposite that induced them to oppose the Bill in its present stage. He feared that the real ground of the opposition of hon. Members opposite was the elective principle of the Bill—that principle which gave to the people the power of choosing such persons as were fit, from their integrity and independence, to exercise beneficially the trust that would be reposed in them. But the opposition of those hon. Gentlemen was confined to cavil and objection—they had not brought forward any plan of their own in lieu of the present. Before any division took place, he begged to remind the House that they were willing in Committee to concede any points that should be found reasonable. With respect to the casting vote of the mayor as chairman he was ready to listen to any suggestion for the substitution of a different chairman. He would suggest that the council should elect a chairman, and that if they failed to do so within a month, then the trustees should elect a chairman themselves.

Mr. Harvey

wished to inquire of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith) whether he understood him to say that when the Bill was committed it was his intention to introduce certain words into the 8th clause, to the effect that nothing in the clause should prejudice the rights of parties to any surplus.

Mr. Vernon Smith

had no such intention.

The House divided, when the numbers were, on the original motion, Ayes 133; Noes 88;—Majority 45.

List of the AYES.
Adam, Sir C. Hume, J.
Aglionby, H. A. Hutt, W.
Angerstein, J. Kemp, T. R.
Anson, hon. Colonel Labouchere, right hon. H.
Baines, E.
Baldwin, Dr. Leader, J. T.
Ball, N. Lee, J. L.
Bannerman, A. Lemon, Sir C.
Barclay, D. Lennard, T. B.
Baring, F. T. Lennox, Lord G.
Barnard, E. G. Lennox, Lord A.
Beauclerk, Major Lushington, Dr.
Bernal, R. Lushington, C.
Bewes, T. M'Leod, R.
Biddulph, R. M'Namara, Major
Bish, T. M'Taggart, J.
Blake, M. J. Marjoribanks, S.
Bowring, Dr. Marshall, W.
Brady, D. C. Maule, hon. F.
Bridgeman, H. Morpeth, Viscount
Brocklehurst, J. Murray, rt. hon. J.
Brodie, W. B. O'Connell, M. J.
Brotherton, J. O'Connell, M.
Bulwer, H. L. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Buxton, T. F. O'Loghlen, M.
Byng, rt. hon. G. S. Oswald, J.
Callaghan, D. Palmer, General
Campbell, Sir J. Parker, J.
Chalmers, P. Pattison, J.
Chetwynd, Captain Pechell, Captain
Childers, J. W. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Clay, W. Pinney, W
Clayton, Sir W. Ponsonby, hon. W.
Curteis, E. B. Potter, R.
Dalmeny, Lord Poulter, J. S.
Dennison, J. E. Price, Sir R.
D'Eyncourt, rt. hon. C. T. Rice, rt. hon. T. S.
Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Donkin, Sir R. Russell, Lord J.
Duncombe, T. Ruthven, E.
Ebrington, Viscount Scholefield, J.
Elphinstone, H. Seale, Colonel
Euston, Earl of Smith, B.
Evans, G. Stuart, R.
Ewart, W. Stewart, P. M.
Ferguson, R. Strutt, E.
Fielden, J. Stuart, Lord J.
Fitzroy, Lord C. Stuart, V.
Fleetwood, P. H. Talbot, C. R. M.
Gordon, R. Talbot, J. H.
Grey, Sir G. Tancred, H. W.
Hall, B. Thomson, right hon. C. P.
Harland, W. C.
Harvey, D. W. Thompson, Colonel
Hastie, A. Thorneley, T.
Hawes, B. Townley, R. G.
Hay, Sir A. L. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Heathcoat, J. Tulk, C. A.
Hector, C. J. Tynte, C. J. K.
Hindley, C Verney, Sir H.
Hobhouse, right hon. Sir J. Villiers, C. P.
Wakley, T.
Hodges, T. L. Wallace, R.
Howard, P. H. Warburton, H.
Howick, Viscount Whalley, Sir S.
Wigney, I. N. Wrightson, W. B.
Wilbraham, G. Wyse, T.
Williams, W. TELLERS.
Wood, C. Smith, V.
Wood, Alderman Stanley, E. J.
List of the NOES.
Alford, Viscount Lawson, A.
Alsager, Captain Lees, J. F.
Arbuthnot, hon. H. Lewis, D.
Attwood, M. Lincoln, Earl of
Baring, W. B. Lowther, hon. Col.
Becket, right hon. Sir J. Lowther, Viscount
Lowther, J. H.
Blackburne, I. Maclean, D.
Blackstone, W. S. Mathew, G. B.
Borthwick, P. Maunsell, T. P.
Bramston, T. W. Miles, W.
Brownrigg, S. Nicholl, Dr.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Norreys, Lord
Campbell, Sir H. Palmer, R.
Chandos, Marquess of Palmer, G.
Chapman, A. Peel, right hon. Sir R.
Charlton, E. L. Pemberton, T.
Chisholm, A. W. Penruddocke, J. H.
Codrington, C. W. Plumptre, J. P.
Cole, hon. A. H. Praed, W. M.
Corbett, T. G. Price, S. G.
Darlington, Earl of Price, R.
Duncombe, hon. W. Pringle, A.
Eaton, R. J. Pusey, P.
Egerton, W. T. Reid, Sir J. R.
Egerton, Lord F. Richards, R.
Elley, Sir J. Rickford, W.
Estcourt, T. Rushbrooke, Colonel
Fielden, W. Sandon, Viscount
Forbes, W. Scarlett, hon. R.
Fremantle, Sir T. Sibthorp, Colonel
Gladstone, T. Somerset, Lord E.
Gladstone, W. E. Somerset, Lord G.
Gordon, hon. W. Stormont, Viscount
Gore, O. Thompson, Alderman
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Trevor, hon. A.
Gresley, Sir R. Twiss, H.
Hamilton, G. A. Vere, Sir C. B.
Hardy, J. Vesey, hon. T.
Hogg, J. W. Wall, C. B.
Hotham, Lord Wynn, right hon. C. W.
Hoy, J. B.
Inglis, Sir R. H. Yorke, E. T.
Jones, T. Young, G. F.
Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E. TELLERS.
Clerk, Sir G.
Knightley, Sir C. Ross, C.

Report taken into consideration, and agreed to.

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