§ On the question, that the sum of 130,000l. should be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charges of the Civil Contingencies,
§ Mr. Humewished to ask a question respecting the expenditure at Constantinople. He was desirous to know, whether it was the intention of the present Government to proceed with the survey ordered by the former Government, with a view to the erection of a palace for the Ambassador at Pera, and whether there was any vote or charge for that purpose in the estimates.
Mr. Francis Baringsaid, that there was no intention to place any expense under that head in these estimates. There was reason to believe that a palace for the Ambassador was not at present required.
§ Mr. Humenext referred to a charge of 1,213l. for legal fees on the appointment of Envoys Extraordinary and Secretaries of Embassy and Legation. He wished to know the nature of these fees, because it appeared a monstrous absurdity that the Government should charge fees on the employment of its own servants. Some means ought to-be adopted to get rid of these fees.
Mr. F. Baringsaid, that if the hon. Gentleman would wait until next year, he hoped he would not have reason to complain of this charge. He perfectly agreed with the hon. Gentleman that it was a monstrous absurdity that the public should be called upon to pay with one hand what it received with the other, and he hoped the system would soon be put a stop to.
§ Mr. Humesaid, he had mentioned the matter, because it was a question involving a sum of 295,000l. He was aware that a part of these fees, came back, but it was after a loss of 50 per cent. He was glad to hear that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to alter the practice. He should recommend the hon. Gentleman to put one or two searching-Members upon a Committee to inquire into the subject, and he would find that that would greatly relieve him of the difficulty. If his own hands were at liberty, he should be happy to be one of such a Committee. He knew that many had a dislike to see these fees meddled with because many of them were paid to the great men about the Court.
§ Mr. Humeobserved an item of 4,000l. paid to Sir George Shee: he wished to know what services that Gentleman had rendered to entitle him to this sum.
Mr. F. Baringsaid, that Sir George Shee had been appointed to an embassy, and after preparing his outfit, his appointment was rescinded on the dissolution of Lord Melbourne's Cabinet; this sum was to defray the expenses he had been put to on that occasion, and had no reference whatever to any salary.
§ Mr. Hume,that expense then was one of the consequences of the experiment lately made by the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) to carry on the Government of the country against the wishes of the people. As the days of common sense were now coming, he hoped the present Government would follow the example set them by their opponents, and not suffer themselves to be surrounded and impeded by men in office adverse to their own principles. He wished the noble Lord, the Secretray for Foreign Affairs were present, that he might have asked him whether he was going on in the old track, or whether he had determined that this country should be represented in foreign courts by persons entertaining feelings corresponding with the feelings of the Government at home? The hon. 1150 Gentleman was then understood to express his entire approval of the appointment of Lord Heytesbury to the Governor-Generalship of India having been rescinded. He thought it a wise step, and hoped it would be adopted in other instances.
§ Sir Samuel Whalleythought, that the expense incurred by the displacing of Sir George Shee would be found to be the smallest expense that the late experiment of the right hon. Baronet had occasioned to the country. He gave notice to his right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he should move for a return of all the expenses that had been incurred in consequence of the recent changes of the. Government.
§ Dr. Bowringknew from personal experience that at this moment a great number of individuals who were representing England in foreign countries did not represent the reform principles of this country. Our Representatives abroad ought to appear to the eyes of strangers as the Representatives of the people appeared to the eyes of their constituents here,—that was, as persons appointed not only to carry out their own views of reform in this country, but to bring those views into practical operation elsewhere. He rejoiced that the Government had lately set aside an individual because that individual did not represent their principles, and he hoped the Administration, to whom he wished to give every sort of efficiency, would be worthily represented in every other court in Europe.
§ Sir Thomas Fremantlewas understood to say that although the Whig Government did not on a former occasion remove our foreign Ambassadors immediately on coming into office, yet it proceeded gradually in making changes, so that when the late Government succeeded them, our foreign Ambassadors were almost all connected with the Whigs.
§ Mr. Roebuckreferred to an item for the expenses of the tours undertaken by the Governor and Bishop of Barbadoes: and said, that as to the latter, especially, they were services performed for the spiritual benefit of the colonies, and the expenses of which ought to be paid by them.
§ Mr. Cobbettsaid, he was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Bath call them "services:" they were nothing more than mere parties of pleasure; the Bishop took the King's frigate to visit his relations, and then he came upon this country for 1151 "spiritual benefits" conferred upon colonies.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas understood to vindicate the present Government from any blame on that account.
§ Mr. Cobbettsaid he cast no imputation upon his Majesty's Government, his observation was only with a view to correct those abuses, and curtail those expenses. He (Mr. Cobbett) knew the difficulty they had to encounter, in the want of a Parliament to back them in making retrenchments which ought to be made: he hoped, however, they would find such a Parliament.
§ Mr. Roebucksaid, that if the colonies wanted Bishops, why did they not keep them? They had got Bishops in England, and quite enough, he was sure, and therefore they sent them to the colonies; the colonies did not like them, and this country was obliged to pay them.
§ Mr. Humesaid, the principle of allowing passage-money, rested on this; that when individuals were appointed to foreign offices, and the salary did not begin till their arrival at the station, it was very fair that all their expenses should be paid to carry them there. But when a noble Lord was appointed, and the day he arrives receives a thousand pounds down, why should they adopt the principle of paying the expenses of carrying him round the coast. The practice had prevailed in the East-India Company, that the salary was continued though all expenses—all the charges of contingent expenses—were repaid, and the Governor, charged all his travelling expenses to the Company. No alteration was made till the expenses became so enormous, that the Court of Directors very properly took the matter up. Upon principle, they ought not to suffer anything of this kind, and he would put it to the Government to consider that in future. They ought not to make any grants but on principle (for it was of principle that he was speaking; and whether it were 1l. or 1000l. they ought to act on principle) and when they made an appointment, they ought not to pay one shilling expenses when the salary commenced immediately. In a country oppressed like this the granting of that money was very improper, and he, (Mr. Hume) wished the people to see that there was no sanction whatever for the payment of those expenses, and that if they did not act on principle they ought not to act at all. He wished to ask 1152 this question.—Were any of the English Bishops paid for their expenses during their removals?
§ Dr. Bowringsuggested that these estimates should be made up in a very different manner. There was the sum of 14,504l. "for Commissioners,"—no information was given as to the number of the Commissioners; and, if any Member should desire to have any information with respect to particulars, he would have to look at all the particular reports, or to the names of every particular commission. It was perfectly impossible in the present state of those accounts to come down to that House prepared to discuss the question in all its bearings. He, (Dr. Bowring) should suggest that every part of those estimates should be attached to the department to which they belonged.
§ Mr. Tookesaid, it was singular that when the whole time of any public officer was devoted to the public service, that for any particular services he should come upon the country with additional demands upon the public money.
§ Mr. Humeremarked that there was an item of 3,345l. for the expenses of the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, he thought that there were salaries very large appropriated to such individuals. And that it was encouraging a state of expenditure very much above what it ought to be, the best way of supporting Royalty was to make no demands not absolutely necessary for its dignity. There was a charge of from 70l. to 80l. per-annum, for the Almonry office which he thought quite unnecessary when the only duties performed were, once a-year, the distributing the King's bounty to a few old men and women.
§ Mr. Cobbettobserved that the aristocracy of this country were very humble; when they could not get much, they were contented with little. The Americans had Ambassadors far superior to any that this country had sent out, at an expense much less than that which the Duke of Wellington put into his pocket every year. Several of those charges ought to be upon the Civil List. It was absolutely necessary that they should have a cheap Government; and they were in a state when a change of some sort or other must take place, and therefore they should begin by appointing a cheap Government
§ Mr. Roebuckasked a question relative 1153 to the charges for the expenses of the Commission for settling the North American Boundary Line.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it could not be expected that the King of the Netherlands (to whom the question had been referred for arbitration) could take any share in the expenses since he had no interest, whatever in the settlement of the question.
§ Mr. Cobbettrose to express his dissatisfaction at the charges inserted in the estimate for the expenses of "Commissions for inquiring into the State of the Law," the causes of agricultural distress were the frequent alteration of the laws. They were everlastingly altering the laws, when, in America, the laws were made good at first, there was no "Commission," and they were the same as ever. With respect, especially to the alteration of the punishment for horse-stealing; he was of opinion that it had a very bad effect upon the agricultural system, and that horse-stealing had increased to a very great degree. He was quite sick of hearing them talk about "Commissioners to inquire into the law."
§ Mr. Ewartdiffered from the hon. Member for Oldham who had said, that the crime had increased since the alteration of the law; such was not the fact, and he was borne out in that, by reference to the returns of assizes. If the hon. Member (Mr. Cobbett) had attended to those returns he would have come to a similar conclusion. And as to Commissioners to inquire into the state of the laws, it was necessary that the laws should be universally known, so that persons should not transgress them by being ignorant of their existence. For example the Dorchester labourers were transported for the transgression of a law, of the existence of which he, (Mr. Ewart) verily believed they were ignorant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he thought no benefit could arise to the laws of the country from such a discussion.
§ Mr. Cobbettwas not satisfied with the item he observed for "pensions to Spanish subjects in England," what services had they rendered this country? If the Parliament was to be charitable, he, should like to give the money to poor men and women in England. Why should they be so very charitable to the Spanish people? when there were so many at 1154 home. He, believed that not one of them had rendered any real service to the country. He should be ashamed of himself if he had suffered that vote to pass silently, they ought at least to have some account of the "services" rendered. Then there was 1,500l. to be paid to Dr. Babbage for his machine, and "884l. to Dr. M'Culloch for his services in completing a mineralogical survey of Scotland." Well now, what did they know about this "mineralogical survey?" And yet they were to pay this money to Peter M'Culloch. It was incumbent upon the Ministers to examine into this, and it was for the public benefit, to restrain such an unprincipled waste and squandering of public money.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he could give an answer to the hon. Member. With respect to the names of those who had received that bounty, their names belonged not to Spain, but to Europe, but specially for services rendered to this country, to England, and he for one would never consent to proclaim those names to foreign powers, and thus throw a difficulty in their way of returning home. With respect to the sum voted to Mr. Babbage, the hon. Gentleman the other day received some explanation in justification of a most distinguished scientific discovery. Mr. Babbage did not receive a single farthing of that money; he was engaged in a subject of the greatest possible scientific interest, and he applied to the Government on the subject, not to pay him anything, but to suffer his expenses to be paid upon the publication of the invention. It was proposed to him that some of his instruments should become the property of the country, and it had gone abroad that this was putting money into Mr. Babbage's pocket. Upon the third point, there was no individual connected with the prosecution of that survey alluded to, for whom he felt a higher respect than for Dr. M'Culloch, the mineralogical surveyor; the survey was undertaken by the former Government, and the present Ministry had carried it on since. If, however, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cobbett) thought that there were no beneficial results to be attained by the acquisition of scientifical knowledge, he and the hon. Gentleman were so completely at difference that he despaired of effecting any agreement.
§ Mr. Warburtonsaid, that after all, he 1155 thought it would not be improper for his hon. friend the Member for Oldham to call for a Report on the present state of the machine with respect to its final completion, because he, (Mr. Warbtirton) was under some apprehensions himself upon that subject lest the Gentleman, who had produced the invention, greatly desirous to bring his machine to as great a degree of accuracy as possible, and successive improvements occurring to himself, should go on, step by step, and be led on to greater expense than would be proper. He thought it therefore desirable that the Treasury should call for a Report.