§ MR. Harvey, in rising to submit a motion to the House on the subject of the pensions paid out of the Civil List, said, that his object was to put this question distinctly to the House, whether any portion of the public money was to be received by any persons of either sex, for which some known and adequate service had not been rendered. That was the simple point on which he wished to take the opinion of the House, and he had no intention to touch on any other subject. He did not mean to attack either military or naval sinecures, for he knew, that if he did, he should have all the heroes in that House rising up against him, and asking whether the House was prepared to sacrifice, on mercenary grounds, men who had risked their lives in defence of their country, and who were associated with the brightest periods of our history. His Motion, therefore, would be confined solely to the pensions on the Civil List; but he trusted 3 that the hon. member for Middlesex would not suffer the first Session of the Reformed Parliament (whose commencement, he could not avoid saying, had been most gloomy and disheartening) to pass over, without moving an inquiry into the nature and extent of all our payments, whether consisting of half-pay, retired pensions, superannuations, or of any of the various and ingenious contrivances by which the people of this country were defrauded of their money. It was only by a review of all these various items of expenditure, that the House could hope to discover the means of reduction to any great extent. Such an inquiry would be found a most fruitful source of economy; and the question he was now submitting to the House being a branch of that extensive inquiry, was, in his opinion, a most appropriate forerunner of the motion about to be brought forward that night by the hon member for Marylebone, because it would point out one way by which the deficit in the revenue caused by the repeal of the Assessed-taxes might be supplied. The noble Lord opposite, and his colleagues, had honourably consented to a deduction of ten per cent from their salaries; and he would venture to say, that if the same deduction were made from the pensions on the Civil List, and from all the payments which came under the head of "half-pay," "superannuations," and "sinecures," a more than sufficient sum would be realized to meet the loss occasioned by the repeal of the Assessed-taxes. He held in his hand a statement of the annual expenditure of the United Kingdom, in salaries, pensions, sinecures, half-pay, superannuations, compensations, and allowances; and he believed, that the only reason why it had been allowed to go on, was, that the country was totally ignorant of its amount. The annual sum paid under those various and confused heads exceeded 9,000,000l. sterling; and the following was a detailed Account of the Expenditure:—
| £ | |
| Salaries of 22,912 persons employed in the public offices | 2,788,907 |
| Retired full-pay, half-pay, superannuations, pensions, and allowances in the army | 2,939,652 |
| Retired full-pay, half-pay, superannuations, pensions, and allowances in the navy | 1,583,797 |
| Retired full-pay, half-pay, superannuations, pensions, and allowances in the ordnance | 374,987 |
| Superannuated allowances in the civil departments of government | 478,967 |
| Pensions | 777,556 |
| Pensions in the nature of compensations for the loss of offices in England | 12,020 |
| Pensions in Ireland, chiefly in consequence of the union | 89,245 |
| Annual value of sinecure offices | 356,555 |
| Commissioners of inquiry | 56,299 |
| £9,457,985 |
§ He was ready to admit, that Government had gone to a considerable extent in reducing the amount of the above expenditure; but allowing for all they had done in that way, he might with safety state, that the payments exceeded upwards of 8,000,000l. Besides this, he held in his hand a Classification of 956 Placemen and Pensioners, whose Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, exceeded, Jan. 5, 1830, 1,000l. per annum, which was as follows:—
| No. of Officers. | Description. | Total Emoluments. | Average Income. |
| £. | £. | ||
| 350 | Civil Officers | 698,805 | 1,997 |
| 50 | Court of Chancery | 137,216 | 2,744 |
| 112 | King's Bench and other Judicial Officers | 338,651 | 3,023 |
| 100 | Ambassadors and Consuls | 256,780 | 2,567 |
| 134 | Military officers | 240,847 | 1,794 |
| 36 | Ordnance and Artillery | 50,155 | 1,390 |
| 19 | Naval Officers | 39,835 | 2,076 |
| 147 | Colonial Officers | 378,996 | 2,578 |
| 8 | Officers of the House of Commons | 20,642 | 2,567 |
| 956 | 2,161,927 |
§ Here, then, was an ample field for the operations of a judicious economy. Disregarding all technical objections, as to whether the pensions were placed on the Consolidated fund, or op the Civil List, he would come to the facts of the case at once, and he found that the Pension List at present amounted to 150,000l., charged on the Civil List and the Consolidated Fund in England and Ireland, and the Hereditary Revenues of Scotland. Previous to Mr. Burke's celebratetd speech, which gave birth to the 22nd Geo. 3rd, the Crown had no other restraint on its liberality, than the sense of shame. That statute restricted the power of the Crown to grant pensions within certain limits. Since that period, several attempts had been made to get at the motives for which these pensions were granted, but they had always been resisted, on the ground that the Civil List Was a sacred fund, set apart for the purpose of enabling the Monarch to relieve those unfortunate individuals who might merit his grace and commiseration. The authors of those unsuccessful 5 motions, consoled themselves with the hope, that when a new Monarch ascended the Throne, these things would come under the revision of the House. Such was the state of things, when the noble Lord opposite opened the Civil List. The noble Lord's predecessor had proposed that the whole amount of the Civil List, English, Scotch, and Irish, should be 144,000l. The noble Lord's plan extended the sum to 150,000l. 75,000l. being placed on the Civil List, and the remainder being transferred to the Consolidated Fund; so that the latter payments, as they fell in, might come under the control of the House. When the noble Lord's proposition was explained, many Gentlemen, and he (Mr. Harvey) among the number, wished it to be understood, that in giving their sanction to the arrangement, they should not be precluded from any future inquiry into the circumstances which gave rise to those pensions. What, then, was the nature of those pensions? He found that, in 1829, the hon. member for Middlesex, who by his indefatigable industry had smoothed the road of investigation for all who came after him, moved for a Return of the names only of persons receiving pensions from the Civil List; and the noble Lord opposite supported the Motion, on this undeniable ground—that the administration of the public money, in what-ever hands it might be placed, ought to be a responsible administration; and the noble Lord, with that straightforwardness which always characterized his conduct on the Opposition side of the House, asked how it was possible for them to impeach the propriety of the pensions unless they knew the parties to whom they were given. The House had now that Return in their possession, and he wished to follow it up by another inquiry; for what was the use of having the names, unless they also had the considerations for which the money was given? He held in his hand a return of persons receiving pensions on the Civil List of England, Scotland, and Ireland, including the four and half per cent duties, which last only amounted to 21,000l., and it was singular enough to observe the great disproportion which the female world had in the share of the money. The number of pensioners amounted to 1,303, 1,022 of whom belonged to the fair sex. There were 208 persons with titles of distinction on the list, of whom 124 were ladies. He had made out a classification of these persons, which he would take the liberty of 6 communicating to the House. The hon. Gentleman read the following table:—
§ Return of Pensions on the Civil List of England, Scotland, and Ireland, and on the 4½ per Cent Duties.
| Gross Number. | Males. | Females. | |
| England | 417 | 95 | 322 |
| Scotland | 364 | 47 | 317 |
| Ireland | 477 | 123 | 354 |
| 4½ per Cent Duties | 45 | 16 | 29 |
| 1,303 | 281 | 1,022 |
| Persons with Titles of Distinction. | |||
| Gross Number. | Males. | Female | |
| England | 73 | 29 | 44 |
| Scotland | 56 | 19 | 37 |
| Ireland | 59 | 30 | 14 |
| 4½ per Cent Duties | 20 | 6 | 14 |
| 203 | 84 | 124 |
§ The object of the Motion with which he intended to conclude was, to obtain a return of the considerations for which these various grants were made, and when he observed the number of ladies on the list, and recollected the many scandalous cheap publications which had lately been circulated in the metropolis, insinuating that these "considerations" were of a nameless description, he could not but think that it would be an insult to those fair recipients to suppose that they could have any objection to a Motion which gave them the opportunity of showing the substantial nature and character of the services they had rendered. He preferred obtaining the information he desired by means of a Return, rather than through a Committee of Inquiry, from a feeling of delicacy which he thought the House would at once recognize. To say nothing of the inconveniences attending a Committee of Inquiry, he could not help thinking there would be great indelicacy in calling before it no less than 1,022 ladies at this season of the year. He therefore preferred conveying the wishes of the House to them through that courteous medium of communication by which the orders of the House were usually transmitted. There was another branch of expenditure, which showed how the people of this country were oppressed. In looking over the Civil List he was surprised to find that pensions were given to the servants of his late Majesty, consisting, of course, of the domestics of the household. 7 Thenumberof these servants was 198, and the amount of money they received 14,446l. It was in such things as these that was to be traced the origin of that growing feeling of hostility to the Government which was every where spreading abroad. The Government was strong in that House—strong, not in the support, but in the fears of that House—yet a sentiment was spreading throughout the country which no lover of the Government and Constitution could contemplate without apprehension; and if the Government continued to pursue the course it had hitherto followed with regard to the finances of the country, the Reform of that House, from which they all expected so much benefit, would turn out to be one of the greatest evils that would befal the country. As long as that House was constituted as it had heretofore been, the people always looked to Reform as the means of securing good government; but if that expectation should now be disappointed, to what must they look? They must look to themselves, and the events that had taken place in that great metropolis within the last week plainly demonstrated that they were determined to look to themselves. If Reform disappointed the people, they must look to that which all would deplore, and for which those who disappointed their just expectations would be responsible—a revolution in the institutions of the country. He did not hesitate to say, that no one measure had been brought forward by the Government since the opening of the present Parliament which in any way corresponded with the expectations, not of giddy and extravagant bodies of men, but of the sober and rational Reformers of the country—he meant the middle classes. No one measure had been proposed by the Government which might not have been brought forward, and with success before an unreformed House. Why was the sum of 200,000l. of the public money paid every year as retired allowances and pensions? The late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn) received 2,000l. a-year. Perhaps he should be told, for the right, hon. Gentleman would hardly admit himself to be superannuated, that that was as a retaining fee. Well, then, he said, let the hon. member for the University of Cambridge be appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there would be a saving of 2,000l. a-year. It mattered not to the country what particular men were in office; and he knew of nothing which had been brought forward by the noble 8 Lord (Althorp) which might not have been brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn). Even with respect to Irish Church Reform the plan of the hon. member for the University of Cambridge appeared to him more solid than did that of the noble Lord. Ministers had forfeited the confidence of the national Reformers of England, by turning their backs on all those professions which, when out of office, had earned them the support and applause of the public. They had made the term Whig a by-word, and had shown, that the worst species of Tory was a Whig in place. Had a Motion like the present been brought forward when the Whigs were in their old opposition places, what declamation would the House not hear about the crying injustice of taxing the people for the support of state paupers and unmerited pensionaries. He had said on a former occasion, and he repeated it, that it would be a blessing to the country to see a Tory Government. The Whigs, whose hands and whose tongues were now tied, would then be set at liberty, and assisted by the public voice, they would be able to compel the Tories to act upon the public feeling. The Whigs must now know that mere talking would not do. The people must and would have acts. But his Motion would put the Government to the test. It would compel them to declare whether any person, of any rank or sex, was to continue to receive any sum from the public for which no services were performed? He felt he had opened a wide field, but he hoped the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would confine himself to that simple question. He did not care how his observations on other points were dealt with, so that that question had an intelligible—for if intelligible, it must be a satisfactory—answer. The hon. Member concluded by moving for "a Return of all persons on the English, Irish, and Scotch Pension lists, heretofore paid out of the Civil-list, specifying, with the name, the sum received by each individual the period of the grant, the public ground or other consideration, as far as practicable, on account of which they have been granted, distinguishing those who are widows and orphans of deceased public servants, and such as are in the receipt of any salary, profits, pay, fees, and emoluments, from any public source."
§ Lord Althorpobserved, that the hon. member for Colchester certainly had not confined his remark to that point to which 9 the hon. Member wished him to confine his reply. He did not mean, however, to follow the hon. Member's example in that respect. He would at once admit the general principle, that no person ought to receive the public money unless for services performed now or heretofore. Acquiescing in the general principle, however, he thought, that as the House, at the commencement of the present reign, had assigned a certain sum of money to be disposed of by the Crown, it should not now endeavour to rescind that bargain. The amount granted by the Crown in pensions on the Civil-List was limited by Mr. Burke's Bill, for before the passing of that Bill, it was unlimited. At the commencement of the present reign 75,000l. were voted by Parliament to be applied by his Majesty at his discretion, which was about one-half the total amount of pensions then standing on the Civil List. The House agreed with him in opinion, that those who had pensions granted to them for life by the late King should not be deprived of them at his demise, but that the pensions to be granted by his present Majesty should not exceed 75,000l. The remainder of the pensions granted by the late King were, therefore, transferred from the Civil List to the Consolidated Fund, and as they fell in, the country would have the benefit, for no new pensions would be granted. The hon. member for Colchester seemed to confound the pensions charged on the Consolidated Fund with those charged on the Civil List, but the House would see that there was a material distinction. Those now charged on the Civil List were paid out of a sum of 75,000l. per annum voted to his Majesty at the beginning of his reign, and as that bargain was for the whole reign, he conceived that the amount could not properly be either increased or diminished. Any savings which could be made on the pensions chargeable on the Consolidated Fund would be a real saving to the public, and these pensions were, therefore, a proper subject of inquiry; but after the House had made a bargain as to the sum to be charged on the Civil List, he thought it ought not to call for an account of the manner in which that sum had been disposed of. The hon. member for Colchester stated, that they might take off the House and Window-taxes by the savings to be effected by reducing pensions, which the hon. Member estimated at 8,000,000l. or 9,000,000l. The hon. Member's estimate of the amount of pensions comprised the whole half-pay 10 lists of both the army and navy, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) confessed he did not understand what reductions were contemplated by the hon. Member in those lists. For his part he admitted that the House should keep a strict watch upon the pensions granted by Government, if any were granted, but the sum appropriated to be applied by the Crown in pensions should be left to the Crown for that purpose. If the hon. Member's Motion was confined to the pensions transferred to the Consolidated Fund, and now paid out of that fund, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no objection to it; but be could not consent to such a return with respect to those pensions charged on the Civil List.
§ Mr. Robinsonthought, that the statement just made by the noble Lord would not be considered satisfactory by the country. Though the House had agreed to settle the Civil List at the commencement of the present reign, it was with the clear understanding that the pensions granted during the last reign were to be open to investigation and inquiry. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member for Colchester, that many of those persons were receiving the public money who had rendered no services to the public.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, there were some pensions paid to persons connected with the Press in Ireland—to the proprietor of a newspaper called the Patriot, for instance, which was a patriot in nothing but the name, and which had long since ceased to be published, although the proprietor continued to receive his pension. If the Motion did not embrace pensions of that description, he (Mr. O'Connell) should move hereafter for a specification of the pensions still continued and formerly charged on the Irish Civil List.
§ Mr. Humewas afraid there was some misunderstanding on this subject. There were already returns before the House showing the names of those who received pensions, and the amount received by each individual. The words of this Motion which were most material, were "the public grounds or other consideration as far as practicable," on account of which the pensions had been granted.
§ Lord Althorpbad no objection to the return "as far as practicable," but he could not promise the House that it would produce much additional information.
Colonel Evanswas glad to hear, that the noble Lord had yielded to the Motion, as 11 some doubt had been thrown out as to what the Motion would produce; he begged distinctly to state that, in any case in which no ground could be stated for the grant of a pension, he should move that such pension be no longer paid.
§ Mr. Harveyobserved, in reply, that where no returns could be made to that House, no further payments should, he thought, be made out of the public purse. The time had come when the people of this country would not pay, nor ought to pay, one shilling more to maintain and pamper the luxurious and lascivious aristocracy of the country. There were people riding in their carriages—riding over people in the streets—upon pensions paid by the people, for which no public services were performed, and this the people could not, nor ought not, to endure any longer. With a view to meeting the noble Lord's distinction as to the pensions charged on the Civil List, as distinguished from those charged on the Consolidated Fund, he would alter his Motion by the insertion of the words, "heretofore paid out of the Civil List, and now paid out of the Civil List and Consolidated Fund."
§ Lord Althorp, in assenting to the Motion of the hon. member for Colchester, as amended, observed there were a great many pensions on the Civil List which were granted years ago, and the origin of which it would be difficult, not to say impossible, now to trace.
§ Lord John Russellsaid, that his noble friend, in granting the returns moved for by the hon. member for Colchester, did not accede to the arguments or assertions which he had made use of, all of which he was perfectly ready, at any future suitable opportunity, to meet and oppose.
§ Motion agreed to.