§ Mr. Henry Grattanrose, for the purpose of asking the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether, when it was found necessary to enforce a debt due to the Crown, it was right that the Officers of the Crown should break into the houses of the Kings debtors and take the inmates off to gaol? He understood, that such was the course pursued in Ireland with respect to those who owed tithes, and who, under the construction of a late Act of Parliament, had become Crown debtors. He wished particularly to know whether such a course of proceeding had been sanctioned by his Majesty's Government?
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that by the Act of Parliament passed last Session, money was advanced to the Irish clergy upon the arrears of tithes due to them, and upon such advances being made the debts due to the clergy became debts to the Crown. Now in England and Ireland the law was the same, that for debts due to the Crown houses might be broken into, and entered. He believed, that this might have happened in Ireland in some cases, but he could state, that the same thing would not happen again. Orders had been recently sent to Ireland to suspend the collection of tithe arrears, and all processes issued under the Act of last Session, at least until the opinion of the House was taken on a question which he had to bring forward with respect to the collection of tithes.
§ Mr. Ronaynesaid, he had before understood from the noble Lord, that such a suspension had been directed long since; but the arrears continued to be collected in the most vexatious and oppressive manner. According to the last accounts from Ireland, houses were broken into, and all sorts of outrages were committed in the name of the law.
§ Lord Althorpdid not think he had given any intimation of that kind before. He certainly had not, nor could not have said, that directions were given to the Irish Government not to proceed in the collection of tithe arrears until the present moment. He could now, however, state that such directions had been sent.
Mr. O'Connellhad been furnished with the particulars of a great number of cases in which the clergy of the Established 389 Church in Ireland were proceeding in the most vexatious and oppressive manner to collect their tithes. It was not customary in Ireland to call for tithes or rent due in May until September or October. The clergy, he understood, however, were now levying the May fall under the Tithe Composition, and the course pursued was to issue writs without any demand for the sum due. In one district, 1,000 writs were issued for sums not amounting in a single case to 1l.; and when the persons proceeded against went to pay the amount of their tithes, amounting in many cases to only 7s. or 8s., they were told that costs had been incurred to the amount of 2l. 14s. This had not happened in one or two counties, or in one or two cases, but in a multitude of cases, and in several counties; and he was prepared at any moment to state names and details in proof of the statement. The noble Lord might tell him that the Government had no power to prevent the clergy of the Established Church from levying tithe in whatever manner the law allowed them, but surely the Government had power to prevent the military and police from being sent out to assist the clergy in those vexatious and oppressive proceedings. The police were employed constantly in collecting tithes, and the military were sent out upon more than one occasion (as at Youghal) upon the same service. Surely the Government ought not to encourage proceedings of that description. When he stated, that such proceedings had taken place, and were every day going on, he was sure he might call upon the Members for Ireland, who must be aware of the fact, to bear testimony to the correctness of his statement. It would really appear that the object was to force the peasantry of Ireland to insurrection. He begged to ask the noble Lord, whether any instructions had been sent to the Irish Government to prevent the employment of the police and military in assisting the clergy in the collection of tithes?
§ Lord Althorphad heard and believed, that the clergy had in some cases pressed for the payment of their tithes—he would not say in the manner in which the hon. and learned Member had stated, but certainly in what he should call an imprudent manner. The hon. and learned Member, however, was mistaken, if he supposed that in any of those instances in which the dues of the clergy were imprudently pressed for, the Government had given its assistance.
Mr. Lefroydid not think any one could be surprised to learn that those who had been for throe years without receiving any part of their income, and were reduced to a state of positive starvation and distress, as many of the Irish clergy had been, should take the earliest opportunity afforded by the appearance of returning peace in the country, to try and recover some part of their dues. The noble Lord, in reply to the hon. and learned member for Dublin, had used the phrase "imprudent proceedings." Now, in justice to the clergy of Ireland, the noble Lord should state whether he meant to apply the epithet imprudent generally, or to those particular cases pointed out by the hon. and learned member for Dublin. If the hon. and learned Member would bring forward the subject, after giving due notice, so as to give the parties alluded to an opportunity of explaining, instead of dealing in gross and sweeping assertions, he should be prepared to meet him.
§ Mr. Barronsaid, that the greatest harshness and oppression had been practised in the counties of Waterford and Kildare, in the collection of tithes. The police in these counties were turned info process-servers for tithes; and he asked the noble Lord whether that ought to be permitted by the Government? The clergy were now pursuing a most outrageous course of proceeding, and taking the most unfair advantage of the Act of last Session, as it would serve to oppress the people, and drive them to rebellion. He did hope that his Majesty's Government would discountenance such disgraceful, base, and ignoble conduct.
Sir Hussey Vivianfelt it due to the Irish Government to state, that in many instances the assistance of the police had been refused when applied for to enforce the payment of tithes. There could be no doubt that in many instances the police had gone out with those who were employed to serve tithe processes; and if they had not, every one who knew anything of the state of the country, could imagine what would be the fate of the process-server. The military had been employed on no occasion, unless for the purpose of covering and protecting the civil power; and he was yet to learn that this was an improper employment of a military force. Although some of the clergy might have been hasty in attempting to recover their demands, he could 391 assure the House that nothing could equal the patience and forbearance generally exhibited by them. He had seen enough of Ireland, however, to be satisfied that it was absolutely necessary that tithes should be done away with. He repeated what he had said—he wished to see the tithes done away with in Ireland by a fair and honest commutation. He did not mean, that they should be done away with, and given to the landed proprietors. He was as anxious as any man could be for a fair and satisfactory settlement of the question, and he admitted that in some few instances the clergy might have been hasty in enforcing their dues, but, generally speaking, he believed that the best friend the Irish poor man had was the clergyman of his parish.
§ The subject was dropped.