SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 29 April 1833)

Colonel Maberly
rose to propose the Ordnance Estimates, which he said were similar to those which had been proposed on previous occasions; but he trusted, that he should satisfy the House, that every endeavour had been made to reduce the expense as far as was practicable. Indeed, he might say that a most material diminution of the expense of these Estimates had been effected since the last year's accounts. The gallant Member then entered into a comparative statement of the amount of the expenditure in preceding years, as contrasted with that of 1833and 1834. It appeared that in 1729 the Estiraatesamountedtol,500,000l.;in 1830 to 1,800,700l.; in 1831, to 1,714,000l,; in 1832, to 1,692,000l.; and in 1833 and 1834, to 1,597,000l., which, with the supplemental Estimates, made a sum of 1,604,000l. Upon the whole there would be a saving of 88,000l., which saving would, however, be diminished by the supplemental vote for this year of 38,000l. The gallant Member concluded by stating that he had effected as great a reduction in the expense of the estimates as he was able consistently with the interest of the public and the efficiency of the service, and moving the first Resolution, "That a sum not exceeding 71,996l. be granted for the civil establishments of the Tower, Pall-mall and Dublin."

§ Mr. Hume
said, that he was sorry to observe the inattention with which the statement of the gallant Member had been received—a statement referring to a subject of such immense importance. He could not compliment the gallant Member on the point on which he seemed to pique himself—namely, introducing the Estimates in the plan adopted by all his predecessors. In his opinion, the House ought to come to the determination of suiting the expenditure to the income, and not regulate the income to the expenditure. Unless this determination were come to by the House, he must say they would not be doing justice to the country, and he was sorry to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not yet taken the hint. He disliked the whole system on which the Ordnance was conducted, nor did he think that any serious discussion upon the Estimates would be productive of a beneficial result. They had voted the amount of the army, and a proportional amount of artillery must 741 follow as a matter of course; he hardly knew, therefore, how he should deal with those Estimates. The gallant Member had contrasted them with the Estimates of 1792. Different from those they were indeed. Why, the average expenditure for Ordnance Estimates, including sea service and Ordnance extraordinary, was but 49,642l. in the years 1790, 1791, and 1792. In order to lessen the too great expenditure for these Estimates, he would propose to reduce the post of the Master-General of the Ordnance, and would, as a further measure of improvement, suggest that the Engineer corps should be placed under the immediate control of the Commander-in-chief This was the course pursued with respect to that corps in other countries, and why not in this? England was the only country in which the artillery was so separated from the superintendence of the Commander-in-chief as to be almost unknown to him. In the English army there were besides fewer engineers and artillerymen, who were intrusted with the care of any situation of importance, than in any other army in the world. Why was that? In the French army especially, the engineers and artillerymen were intrusted with very important duties. He wished to simplify the system adopted in England, by establishing a store branch connected with the Ordnance. If the artillery and engineers were placed under the control of the Commander-in-chief, us he suggested, there would remain only a simple store account under the supervision of the Ordnance department, and this branch of the service might then be conducted for one-tenth of the expense which it cost at present.

§ Mr. Briscoe
rose to order, and expressed his regret, that whilst the Estimates were under consideration, and the amount of the expenditure of the country about to be fixed, a constant noise should be kept up in the House. It was the duty of hon. Members to watch the Estimates closely, with the view of seeing whether any reduction could be effected in their amount, for the reduction of the Estimates was one mode by which they might hope to lessen the taxation of the country. It would be only decorous to pay some degree of attention to the business before the Committee.

§ Mr. Hume
said, he believed he was only losing time in addressing the Committee. 742 He could not hope by any exertion of his to effect such a reduction in the present Estimates as would enable the Government to remit taxation to any considerable amount. He wished the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer had that day followed the example which was set by the Ministers in 1816, by coming down to the House and withdrawing the whole of the Estimates, with the view of substituting for them a set considerably reduced in amount. The noble Lord himself was one of those who in 1816 joined in a vote which compelled the then Ministers to withdraw their Estimates and substitute others of a reduced amount, although they had previously declared, like the present Ministers, that they were reduced to the lowest possible scale. He wished before he sat down to ask whether the Ordnance establishments in Pall-mall, and at the Tower had been consolidated?

§ Lord Althorp
said, that if he had considered the Estimates which had been submitted to the House were greater than the service of the State required, he would have followed the precedent to which the hon. member for Middlesex had alluded, but by so doing he should be admitting that he had consented to the introduction of estimates which were larger than the exigencies of the case required. He was still of opinion that the public service required the establishments which he had proposed, and that being his opinion, he should not feel himself justified in acting upon the suggestion of the hon. Member. In answer to the question of the hon. Member, he begged leave to state that the establishments in Pall-mall, and at the Tower, had not been consolidated, because different classes of services were brought under supervision of those establishments, the commingling of which would be injurious to the public interests.

§ Mr. Hume
said, that this service was kept up on the highest war scale, and that half the number of men would in these times of peace, answer all the purposes for which an artillery was required. He would therefore move as an amendment, and that the number of men should be reduced from 6,000 to 4,000 or as a 743 money vote, that the estimate should be reduced to 184,771l.

Colonel Maberly
maintained, that the present amount of men was hardly adequate to the wants of the service. The Master-General had five demands from the colonies for artillerymen; but owing to the paucity of men, was only able to comply with two of them.

§ Mr. Hume
said, that his reduced vote would be 1,000 men more than was found wanting in 1792.

§ Mr. Hume
said, that he objected to the amount of the vote, but from the result of the late division, he concluded it would be useless to offer any opposition to the grant. He thought that as the House seemed determined not to support any proposition for reduction, the sooner it closed its doors the better.

§ Mr. Hume
said, he would take the sense of the House on the vote. For the last nine years promises had been made by successive Chancellors of the Exchequer that this system of fees should be abolished; and yet it continued to the 744 present moment. He was determined now to bring the question to the test of a division.

§ Lord Althorp
hoped that the House would not object to this vote for the present year, when he stated that a measure was in preparation which would abolish all those fees.

§ Mr. Hume
said, that if he was to believe all that he was told, a measure had been in preparation for the last nine years. Would the noble Lord fix a day for the introduction of the measure he spoke of? The system of paying fees to public officers on the payment or receipt of public money was most abominable, and ought to be put an end to.

§ Lord Althorp
said, the measure he alluded to had not been in preparation for nine years, though he admitted that it had been some time under consideration. It was not, however, surprising that a measure, the purpose of which was to effect a general arrangement with regard to the Exchequer, should take a long time in the preparation; but he could inform the hon. member for Middlesex that the Bill was now in a state of great forwardness.

§ Mr. Hume
asked whether he was to understand that the noble Lord was pledged to bring his Bill in, and pass it during the present Session?

§ Lord Althorp
pledged himself to bring it in, but he could not pledge himself to pass it.

List of the AYES.
ENGLAND.	Torrens, Colonel
Aglionby, H. A.	Turner, W.
Attwood, M.	Wason, R.
Beauclerk, Major A.	Whalley, Sir S.
Clay, W.	Williams, Colonel
Faithful, G.
Fielden, J.	IRELAND.
Godson, R.	Bellew, R. M.
Humphery, J.	Finn, W. F.
Lloyd, J. H.	Fitzgerald, T.
Marsland, T.	Lalor, P.
Morrison, J.	O'Brien, B.
Palmer, General	O'Dwyer, A. C.
Parrot, J.	Ruthven, E.
Phillips, M.	Ruthven, E. S.
Potter, R.	Vigors, N. A.
Stavely, J. K.	TELLERS.
Thicknesse, R.	Hume, J.