HC Deb 29 April 1833 vol 17 cc744-50

On the Question that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again,

Mr. Hume

said, that he wished to call the attention of the House to a matter of much public importance, of which he had previously given notice. To those who had been as long in that House as he had been, and who had laboured as sedulously in the public service, it would not be necessary for him to address many observations to prove the difficulty which attended all investigations connected with matters of finance, and how much the public in general, and the Members of that House in particular, must feel themselves indebted to any person undertaking any work calculated to facilitate those investigations. The House would recollect that a Committee had some time ago been appointed, and had made a report upon the subject of public documents. In the course of their investigation they found considerable difficulty in collecting information respecting the past income of the country, the increase and decrease of trade, and many other matters connected with the financial and commercial state of the kingdom. A gentleman of the name of Marshall was called before the Committee, it being well known that he had employed himself for the last twelve years in collecting and classifying a variety of public accounts, and at the close of his examination he laid before the Committee a collection of papers containing a complete view of the expenditure and revenue of the kingdom, and forming a series of statistical accounts of the most valuable nature. Indeed, there was scarcely a subject connected with finance or commerce respecting which information might not be gained by reference to Mr. Marshall's book, and he had no doubt that his work would save the country large sums of money, which were now expended annually in printing returns and public accounts for the use of the Members of that House. So convinced was he of the value of Mr. Marshall's work, both as respected the information it would afford and the expense it would save the country, that he some time ago represented to his Majesty's Ministers the propriety of giving that gentleman 500l. to enable him to complete his book. Nor was he singular in his opinion of the merit of Mr. Marshall's book, for the member for Harwich, formerly Chancellor of the Exchequer, had said, that he considered that 10,000 guineas would not pay the actual labour of the work, and no price could remunerate the talent displayed in the arrangement and classification of the materials. The Committee also considered the work to be one of great utility, and in order to encourage Mr. Marshall to persevere in his labours, they came to the resolution of recommending the House to purchase 1,250 copies of the book for the use of the Members. He considered a work of that kind as nothing less than a great national undertaking, and he could inform the House that works of a similar kind were looked upon as great national undertakings, both in the United States and amongst the most civilized and advanced countries of Europe. His Majesty's Government had thought so favourably of the work, that they had gone as far as perhaps an Executive Government ought, in awarding to Mr. Marshall a sum of 500l.; but he had no difficulty in saying that fifty times that sum would scarcely represent the value such a compilation would be likely to prove to the community; and he felt quite assured, that if hon. Members would only take the trouble to refer to the book itself they would be at once sensible of its importance. He was aware that a new department was about to be established for statistical purposes; of that department he highly approved; and he hoped that it would be carried to a much greater extent than had been originally proposed; but whether it was or not formed was a question which had no bearing upon the present discussion. It was of the utmost importance that the Members of that House and the constituency at large should be made acquainted with the actual expense of every portion of the public service and of every island, and every colony connected with Great Britain. He should conclude by moving, that the Committee agree in the recommendation of the Committee on Public Documents, that 1,250 copies of Mr. Marshall's digest of information, derived from parliamentary documents since the year 1798, be purchased for the use of the Members of the House and that a sum not exceeding 2,625l. be granted for the purchase of the said copies.

Lord Althorp

said, he was inclined to leave the vote to the general feeling of the House whether the proposed grant of money was, under the circumstances of the case, justifiable. He did not mean to deny that great ability and industry had been displayed by Mr. Marshall in the compilation of the materials of his work; but it should be borne in mind that that gentleman had already received a grant of 500l., and that great difference of opinion existed as to the propriety of that grant at the time it was proposed. He had been ready to make the first advance of 500l. upon his own responsibility, and that circumstance must be a sufficient proof of his sense of the utility of the work. He would leave it to the House to decide whether it would sanction a second grant of a similar kind.

Mr. Methuen

was hostile to this grant. He was surprised that the hon. member for Middlesex, who had so often depicted the distress of the country in the most lamentable colours, should now come forward with a proposal to throw away 2,600l. of the public money, by giving it to an individual of whom the House knew nothing save from the ipse dixit of the hon. Member himself. Such inconsistency was, to say the least of it, surprising. In the present condition of the country he never would consent to vote away such a sum for such a purpose, and if he divided against the grant alone, he certainly would press it to a division.

Mr. George F. Young

said, that the excellence of this work should not rest any longer upon the unsupported ipse dixit of the hon. member for Middlesex. He could not say that he had perused this work of Mr. Marshall,—that was almost beyond any man's power,—but he had devoted many hours to an examination of it, and he could say, that he had never met in so brief a space so large a quantity of political information so lucidly and methodically arranged. It was a work that to Members of Parliament must be invaluable. Indeed, the labour of collecting the information contained in it would be inconsistent with the ordinary avocations of any Gentleman. He had purchased this work for himself, so fully was he convinced of its excellence. He cordially concurred with the proposition of the hon. member for Middlesex.

Mr. Warburton

was proud to add his testimony in favour of this work to the testimony which had been already given by his two hon. friends, the members for Middlesex and Tynemouth.

An Hon. Member

did not mean to disparage the merits of Mr. Marshall's work, but he could not agree with the hon. Gentleman who had preceded him, that hon. Members, instead of putting their own hands into their own pockets for the price of this volume, should seek to make the country pay the price of it for them. The notoriety which the work would get from the publication of this debate would be worth more to the compiler than the whole sum which the hon. member for Middlesex now proposed to give him. He should undoubtedly oppose the grant.

Mr. O'Connell

said, that there was in favour of this grant the singular circumstance that it was recommended by his hon. friend the member for Middlesex, the great champion of economy upon all occasions. It was also recommended by the Committee upon Public Documents, and he understood that, useful as the work was, it could never be completed unless this sum was granted. He was convinced, from what he had seen and heard of this work, that for the charge of 2,600l. the public would get in return sufficient value.

An Hon. Member

said that this volume was but a pocket edition of the library of the House; and yet hon. Gentlemen seemed inclined to impose upon the public a charge of 2,600l. to save themselves the trouble of consulting the documents which every man might easily find in the library. He was anxious to possess a book which had been so well spoken of, but he saw no reason why he should put his hand into the pocket of the public, instead of putting it into his own pocket to obtain a copy of it.

Mr. Matthias Attwood

in supporting the grant, eulogized the fitness of Mr. Marshall for the important work which he had undertaken, and all but completed. That work had been of inestimable use to the hon. member for Middlesex, who had found his labours greatly facilitated by referring to the well-digested accounts contained in its pages.

Lord John Russell

said, that he felt it his duty, as Chairman of the Committee on Public Documents, to state the grounds upon which that Committee had come to their recommendation. He certainly differed from the Committee as to the propriety of such a recommendation; for he preferred giving a certain sum of money to Mr. Marshall for the completion of this work, to giving him 2,600l. for 1,200 copies of it. 2,600l. was a large sum to be granted away for such a purpose; but hon. Gentlemen were not, perhaps, aware of the large sums which were annually paid in making out the returns moved for by hon. Members. Some of those returns had cost 2,000l. each, and others had reached as high as 4,000l. He should not have made this proposition himself, but as it was made, and as it had met the support of the Committee, he would give up his objections and vote for it.

Mr. Slaney

considered that the important nature of this work rendered it true economy to make this grant.

Mr. Poulett Thomson

said, that as he had opposed the Resolution in the Committee, he would slate the grounds upon which he opposed it now, as he had opposed it formerly. He considered the work to be extremely valuable, and if he looked only to its merits, he should not be averse to the grant. He objected to it, however, upon two grounds—first, on account of the principle which it involved, and, secondly, on account of the mode in which it was proposed to make it. Mr. Marshall had commenced this work proprio motu: statistical works seldom repaid their compilers for the labour bestowed upon them. Would the House, therefore, sanction the principle, as they would do by sanctioning this grant, that a gentleman who had undertaken such a work should come down to the House and say, "I have lost by the printing of my work; it relates to public events and public documents; it contains public information, and therefore to you. Gentlemen of the House of Commons, look for remuneration?" If the House adopted this principle on this occasion, it must be prepared to sit in judgment upon similar applications from the authors of every work of this kind which did not meet with public encouragement. Now as to the mode of making the grant. After the valuable testimony which several hon. Gentlemen whose words were authority had borne to the excellence of this work, he had no doubt that, if the public did not give it encouragement, there would be Members of Parliament enough ready to give it encouragement by paying out of their own pockets two guineas for it. He therefore trusted that this call upon the House to pay 2,600l. for putting a copy of this work into the bookcase of each Member of Parliament at the public expense, was a proposition to which the House would not give its consent without due consideration.

Mr. Wynn

was inclined to support the grant. He had expected to have heard a more decided opinion given upon it than that which had been given by the noble Lord opposite, upon whom, in his character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, he looked as the guardian of the public purse. He had not seen the work of Mr. Marshall before that evening, but from what he had seen of it, he should say, that it was a work of first-rate utility, which loudly called for public encouragement. The right hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to imagine that, because it was worthy of public encouragement, it would therefore meet it; but no supposition could be more erroneous. He could mention many works of undoubted merit which had failed to obtain the patronage of the public. Among works of that description was a work of the highest authority regarding the forms and proceedings of that House; hon. Gentlemen must be aware that he was alluding to Hatsell's Precedents. That work had never paid the expense of paper and printing, and he knew that Mr. Hatsell had been a considerable loser by its publication. From the responsible and dignified situation which he had so long held in that House, Mr. Hatsell determined to make a present of it to the public, for he never expected to be remunerated by its sale for the expense and labour which he had bestowed upon it.

Lord Sandon

said, that before the Committee proceeded to a division he should propose that 500l. or 1,000l. should be given to Mr. Marshall for the completion of his work, instead of 2,600l. for 1,200 copies for the use of Members of that House. If the original Motion were carried, the 658 Members of the present House of Commons would each be entitled to a copy of the work. Now, to ail of that number, except perhaps a hundred, the book would be mere waste paper, and they would take an early opportunity of exchanging it with their booksellers for some works more to their taste and edification. The Members of the next House of Commons would also be in want of their copies. Some of them would obtain copies—others would not. The House of Commons after the next would be loft entirely without copies of this important work. The Motion was therefore faulty, as it provided for the giving away a work of permanent importance to a body that was transient and changeable in its nature. He concluded by moving as an Amendment that a sum not exceeding 1,000l. should be granted to Mr. Marshall for the completion of his digest of the public accounts.

The Committee divided on Lord San-don's Amendment—Ayes 75; Noes 117; Majority 42.

The Committee divided again on the Question that the sum of 1,500l. be granted to Mr. Marshall—Ayes 78; Noes 116: Majority 38.

The Committee divided on the orginal Motion—Ayes 106: Noes 88: Majority 18, House resumed.