§ Lord Althorpsaid, he wished to have had an opportunity, at an earlier period of the evening, to explain the objects of the Bill of which he had given notice. He hoped the House would permit it to pass rapidly through all its stages. And, as it was probable that the Bill would not be ready to be placed in the hands of Gentlemen before it was passed, he felt it desirable to state more in detail than would otherwise be necessary the provisions which it was intended to comprise. He believed the House was aware that, although orders in Council might be issued, yet there was no power, as the law at present stood, to carry those orders into effect, and, therefore, the necessary regulations for the purpose of preventing contagion, and of providing accommodation for persons labouring under contagious disorders, could not be efficiently made in the present state of the law. Undoubtedly, in the proposition which he was about to submit to the House, he was giving great and extraordinary powers to the Privy Council, but he meant to limit those powers as to time. He would propose that this Bill should expire at the end of the present year, or of the then next Session of Parliament. The power, while it lasted, would be a very extensive one, but he was sure every one would feel it was desirable and necessary that such a power should be given. Of course, any orders, issued by the Privy Council, in execution of the power to be intrusted to it, would be submitted as quickly as possible to Parliament; but he thought that, in the first instance, the execution of those orders ought not to be lightly delayed. The first provision which he meant to introduce in the Bill empowered any three Members of the Privy 338 Council, of whom the President of the Council, or one of the Secretaries of State was always to be one, to make orders for the prevention of contagion, for the relief of the sick, and for the burying of the dead. Every person would admit the propriety of using exertions to stop, as far as could be practicable, the progress of contagion. No one could deny that the greatest and most serious evils must arise from any delay in affording relief to those attacked, and as to the last, it was found that all precautions would be ineffectual unless measures were adopted for the immediate interment of the dead. The next provision of the Bill declared, that every person violating the orders of the Council for the preservation of the public health, should be held to be guilty of a misdemeanour, and fined any sum which might be considered expedient, from one pound to five pounds. Certainly this provision gave to the Privy Council very arbitrary powers, and nothing could justify such a proposition except the exigency of the case; but he thought that the necessity was such as to justify it in the eyes of all rational men. Then came the next point, namely, the expense of carrying these orders into execution, and on this account the Bill, as he at present proposed to frame it, would not be applied immediately to Scotland and Ireland, because there were no means in those parts of the empire of providing for the expense in the way proposed in this Bill. But he must observe, that another Bill would be introduced, as soon as arrangements could be made, for the purpose of accomplishing the same objects in Scotland and Ireland. The mode in which the expenses were to be provided for was, first, from the Poor-rates in the parishes, and ultimately the county treasurer would pay them out of the county purse; for it would not be just or fair to impose expenses which were incurred for the benefit of a large district upon an individual parish. The expenses sustained by a parish might be for the safety of its immediate neighbourhood even more than that for the parish itself where the malady existed, and therefore it was but fair that the expenses should be borne, not by the parish alone, but by the county generally, where the disorder prevailed. These were the principal provisions of the Bill, with the limitation as to duration which he had made, namely, the end of this year, or of the next Ses- 339 sion of Parliament. He hoped the explanations which he had given were such as to induce the House to permit him to introduce the Bill, and pass it rapidly through its stages. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill for giving further powers to the Privy Council for preventing the spread of the Cholera.
Mr. Warburtonbegged leave to ask whether it was intended by this Bill so to augment the power of vestries as to enable them to raise such rates; because he knew there were parishes where the vestry would be willing to raise the rates, but it would be in the power of any parishioner to object to the rates as illegal? He almost wished that one day's delay might be allowed for the purpose of consulting with the parish authorities on this point, and of considering whether all the clauses had been introduced in the Bill, which would be necessary to carry its intentions fully into effect.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, he was quite satisfied of the necessity of some legislative enactment to ensure the observance of precautions calculated to prevent the spreading of the Cholera. Under the existing circumstances, when the danger was so imminent and indefinite, and when it was so difficult to see the precise course which it would be expedient to follow, to attempt to define the proper measures at present would be to defeat the object in view. He suspected no abuse of the powers which it was proposed to confer, and therefore thought it better to give a discretionary power to the Privy Council than for Parliament to attempt to define the precise nature of the measures to be adopted. To the substance of the Bill he had no objection. The Cholera was not a parochial disorder. It had begun at Sunderland, had travelled to Edinburgh, and was now in London. Why, therefore, should the expenses incurred for necessary precautions be made a parochial charge? The whole country had the deepest interest in the subject. The disease would probably rage with the greatest violence, and be felt with the greatest severity, in the poorest parishes, and the expense would be in proportion. As to the county paying the expense, that would be an arbitrary distinction, for Rutland was of one size, and Yorkshire another. We were all as much interested in preventing the spread of contagion in Bethnal-green as in Cumberland and West- 340 moreland. If a different bill were to be introduced for Scotland and Ireland, because there were no Poor-rates in those countries, he thought the arrangement would be most confused and complicated. The Cholera, if it got into Ireland, would, no doubt, be felt most severely there, and he did not see why the expenses should not be paid from the general fund.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that the 58th and 59th George 3rd had been passed for the purpose of preventing the spread of typhus fever in Ireland, and of providing for the necessary expenses. What was now necessary was, to extend the provisions of that Bill to the case of Cholera.
Sir Robert Peelsaid that, whatever was the case with regard to typhus fever, he should advise the Government to simplify their operations in the present instance—to consider Cholera as a peculiar case, and to give such powers to the Privy Council as would enable it to defray the expenses out of the public purse. In Ireland and Scotland to make it incumbent upon the local authorities to furnish the supplies would be very hard. They ought to have one authority—a metropolitan one—consisting of three members of the Privy Council, if the House thought fit, who should have the power to take whatever precautions were judged necessary with respect to places which were infected, and those which were not; but let them pay the charges out of the public money, as a matter of general concern.
Lord Miltoncould not help entreating his noble friend to accede to the proposition of the right hon. Baronet. He was sure this was a national, and, as the right hon. Baronet had said, not a parochial or a county concern. It interested the nation, and whatever concerned the nation ought to be paid by the nation.
§ Mr. Huntasked how it would be possible to collect the rates in Bethnal-green, for instance, when the parish was already so much indebted to the tradesmen, who supplied it with necessaries, that they were daily threatening to stop the food necessary for the support of the poor creatures in the workhouse? They would defeat their own proposition if they required the parishes to pay all the necessary rates. He would call the attention of the House to a circumstance which he had seen stated in the newspapers. It seemed the Lord Mayor had been kind enough to offer to appropriate his house for an hos- 341 pital, forsooth, for the sick. The house was in Abchurch-lane, in the very heart of the city. Now, he said, that was the very way to propagate the disease instead of checking it. He hoped, therefore, that the matter would be speedily taken up by other hands.
§ Sir George Clerksaid, that, although the Cholera had not made any progress in Edinburgh, it was in the immediate vicinity of that city. He, therefore, thought it was necessary, that whatever precautions were to be taken to prevent the spread of the disease should be applied in the neighbourhood of that city without delay. He believed, if the noble Lord would consult the learned Lord Advocate, he would find it very difficult to carry into effect a bill imposing any expenses upon the local authorities. They had hitherto been defrayed by the zealous benevolence of the neighbourhood; but if the disorder were to make any greater progress, it would be impossible to raise the necessary funds by voluntary contributions. The Magistrates in that part of the country were very anxious to enforce the measures recommended by the Privy Council; but they found that they had not the power. He hoped his Majesty's Government would make the Bill applicable to Scotland and Ireland on one principle—that of paying the expense out of the public purse.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, the ground upon which he formed his proposal was this: if the expenses were to be defrayed out of the public funds, there would be no check, and it would lead to great extravagance. That certainly would be a false economy which would not afford sufficient funds; and yet he did think that there might be objections to giving such a power over the funds of the country for this purpose. It might, as he had said, lead to extravagant expense; and the house would not be pleased with such a step, without a necessity. Certainly no expense that was requisite ought to be spared; but, at the same time, it was better not to run the risk of any unnecessary expense if it could be avoided. He thought the mode proposed by the Bill would be found effectual, although he admitted that it would be improper to make the expense ultimately a parochial charge.
Mr. Warburtonbegged to ask, whether, in parishes voluntarily taxing themselves, the regulations made by the vestry for that purpose would be binding?
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the Bill did not give that power. It enabled the Privy Council to order the expenses, and it made the orders of the Privy Council legal.
Mr. Goulburnthought, that what the noble Lord had just said was an answer to the noble Lord's own objection to the proposition of his right hon. friend. It seemed the Privy Council were to have the power to make orders, and, under those orders, the expenses were to be paid. Then the Privy Council would have an effectual control, and the payment of the money out of the public funds could not lead to extravagant expense. If the authority were given to the parishes, the result would be that, where expense was most necessary, an improper desire of saving their own money would restrain them, while, in other cases, personal fears would occasion unnecessary expense. He joined with his right hon. friend in hoping that the public funds would be applied to defray the expense.
§ Sir Richard Vyvyansaid, the Bill ought to prevent unnecessary expense, but, at the same time, care ought to be taken, that every expense which was necessary should be incurred. He thought the fine of 5l. was not a sufficient penalty. It might, in many cases, be the interest of parties to break through the orders, and to bear the fine of 5l., or even twice the amount. He should recommend to the Government to increase the fine, or to give additional powers to the Privy Council. He agreed with the noble Lord, that all the powers which were necessary ought to be given; they had all one interest on this subject; all party considerations ought to he thrown aside. He was convinced the Executive Government, whoever might compose it, would do what was most necessary for the health and welfare of the country.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the Bill gave a power to the Privy Council to punish any violation of the orders as a misdemeanour, or by fine or imprisonment.
§ Colonel Trenchbegged to know whether there was any provision proposed for burying the dead. Every one knew the melancholy state of the receptacles in the City. There could be nothing more odious or disgusting. It was therefore positively necessary that some receptacle outside the town should be provided for the bodies of persons who died of this disease.
§ Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that ar- 343 rangements had been made for the appropriation of a large spot of ground, at some distance from the city, for the purpose of burying those who should die of the disease. The purchase had been completed that day. He thought that the details of the chief measures must rest with the parochial authorities, under the sanction of the Privy Council. He could assure the House that, since the breaking out of the disease, and the establishment of Boards of Health, Government had received applications from all quarters to be supplied from the public funds, stating the impossibility of raising the necessary supplies otherwise. They had recommended the individuals who made these applications to make subscriptions for whatever expenses were necessary, and in no one instance, hitherto, had there been a deficiency of preparation from the want of funds. Individual benevolence and private charity had supplied what was required. If the country were to pay the expenses, no doubt one of the grounds for private charity would be done away with; but he thought it better to leave the expense to be provided for by the parishes than to draw it from the public purse, for, in that case, it would be indefinite.
§ Mr. Crokerwas desirous of suggesting one consideration to the noble Lord. Suppose, by great exertion and at a great expense on the part of the inhabitants of the county of Kent, the disease should be confined to that county, and, through those exertions and that expense the county of Sussex should escape its ravages, would it not, he asked, be very hard that the county of Kent, in addition to the infliction of the disease, should be liable to all that expense by which the county of Sussex escaped? In such a case he thought that at least the neighbouring county should be liable to a portion of the expense. There was another point which he thought worthy of consideration. During the continuance of the pestilence it was impossible to doubt but that the trade and manufacture of the country, and consequently the subsistence of the poor artizans and labourers would be rendered very precarious; moreover, in consequence of the disease originating on the banks of the Thames, it was extremely probable that the commerce of that river would be placed in a state of quarantine by foreign powers. The effect would be, that the several parishes on the borders of the river would be called upon 344 to supply food for an immense number of persons which the suspension of commerce would render destitute. By this means these parishes, which, it was to be recollected, were at all times very poor, would suffer most from the effects of the calamity, while the parishes which were best able to meet an increased assessment, would escape any burthen whatsoever. For these reasons, he was in favour of defraying all the expense from the Consolidated Fund, and he should be prepared to agree in the next Estimate of Civil Contingencies to any vote called for for such a purpose.
Sir R. Inglissaid, he was apprehensive that the visit of Cholera was not likely to be very transitory. For fourteen years its effects had been visible in India, and he much feared that England would henceforth have reason to look upon it as one of the complaints indigenous to the soil. Such being his opinion, he thought some permanent enactment should be agreed upon, giving, however, power to the Privy Council, or some other body, to watch over, and, as far as possible, prevent the disastrous effects likely to ensue upon its propagation. He thought the expense should not be defrayed by any fund other than that of the country at large.
§ Sir Matthew White Ridleysaid, that in the part of the country with which he was connected, the hand of private charity had been extended beyond any former precedent, and yet it had been hardly sufficient to meet the expenses, and to give adequate relief in the suffering districts. What had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was perfectly true: the existence of the disease would place an additional onus upon the Poor-rates, and it was more than could be expected that a rate sufficient to meet it could be raised in any particular part of the country. The affliction had happily ceased in the northern part of the country to which he referred. They did not ask to be reimbursed the expenses they had been obliged to incur; but he was sure that he spoke the sense of the counties of Cumberland and Durham when he said that it would be impossible to meet the expenses necessary to check the disease without drawing upon the public funds. He saw no reason, however, for delaying the Bill, and, if it were deemed advisable to introduce any measure of the nature urged by the hon. Gentleman opposite, a clause might be added in the 345 Committee without obstructing the progress of the measure. It was a fact which might be easily ascertained that the Cholera was a disorder not entirely new in this country. If it should please Providence to perpetuate it amongst us, we must meet the evil; but he wished to impress upon the House and upon the country, that they should not give way to any unnecessary timidity or alarm. He spoke from experience when he said, that the disease fell on those chiefly who were most apprehensive, while those who boldly and courageously made efforts to relieve their fellow-sufferers were generally rewarded by getting out of the difficulty. There were but few instances at Newcastle, or its neighbourhood, of persons who were engaged in assisting their fellow-sufferers sinking under the disorder. He would also state another fact from his own knowledge—namely, that cases of Cholera appeared generally amongst the lowest classes, and selected its victims chiefly from those who were most intemperate and dissolute in their habits.
§ Mr. Robert Adam Dundassaid, that no time ought to be lost by the House in making such legislative arrangements as should impose on the various parishes in the metropolis the necessity of providing proper houses immediately for the reception of Cholera patients, and enforce all other precautions—such as cleanliness and ventilation—to arrest the progress of the disease.
§ Mr. Hodgessaid, that he feared the assessments for the poor were scarcely able to hold out much longer in maintaining them, so great was the pressure on them: how much less able, therefore, would they not be to support any additional demand for the relief of persons suffering under this disease? To these it could not be hoped they would be able to hold out any prospect of relief whatever; and the only mode, in his opinion, of being able to meet the increased demands would be, by appropriating some portion of the public money for that purpose.
Mr. Stanleywas disposed to agree in that view of this formidable disease, which represented it to be not so much local as general; and he was of opinion that no exertions which could be made to arrest its progress or avert its calamitous career could be too great. The question before the House bore no relation whatever to the mode in which the expense attendant on 346 these exertions was to be defrayed or supported, but it was simply whether they would or would not use the best means which were suggested to avert and arrest the disease; and whether they would give certain individuals such a firm control over the public measures, and also over the funds which should be raised to execute those measures, as to enable them to render them most effectual, as well as to economise the expenditure of the public funds, and see that they were applied directly towards the purposes for which they were raised. Now, if the Legislature were at once to decide that the expenses to be incurred were to be defrayed, by order of the Privy Council, out of the public purse, it would be utterly impossible for any man to say where the claims on the public purse would stop. What fell from the hon. Baronet (Sir M.W. Ridley) in support of this suggestion, seemed to him to bear more against than for it. "Wherever this scourge had hitherto fallen, the calamities attendant on it had been mitigated by the instantaneous assistance which was afforded by the charity of the wealthy." But, if all demands were to be met by the public purse, the springs of private charity would be instantly dried up. He was of opinion, that in the first, instance, the various parishes and counties ought to be left to manage their own expenditure, and if, after the ravages of the disease had ceased, it should be found necessary to afford any of them relief, he did not think Parliament would hesitate in reimbursing those parishes and counties where the disease had been most fatal in all the extra expenditure to which they had thus been unfortunately subjected. He should, therefore, in reply to what had been urged in favour of a grant of public money for this purpose, rather advocate the course of leaving the respective parishes to the economical distribution of their own funds in the first instance, leaving it to the consideration of Parliament, to reimburse those who might suffer most severely.
Lord Sandonthought it would be advisable to have some check, besides the Privy Council, upon the funds raised in parishes for the purpose of meeting the disease. He begged to call the attention of his Majesty's Government to the difficulties which had arisen in populous places from the want of sufficient power in the Magistracy to remove nuisances.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that the powers of the Privy Council were so large and so extensive, that it would not be necessary to increase them further than was proposed by the Bill, or to extend them to any other functionaries.
Mr. Keith Douglasstated, that in Scotland there was no power of raising parish rates for the purposes for which it was the object of the present Bill to provide. The county rates were not available in towns for such purposes. Any enactment relating to Scotland, therefore, must state some particular manner in which the necessary funds were to be raised, unless they were to be paid out of the public purse.
The Lord Advocateadmitted that there would be considerable difficulty in making any local assessments in Scotland s owing to the varied and diversified manner in which rates were enforced in that country, at the same time that he confessed he was not at the present moment prepared with any proposition on the subject.
§ Sir Robert Pricewas much disposed to question if any effective control could be established over the money derived from the public purse for preventing the spread of contagion. It was his opinion that the merchants and landowners assembled in this great metropolis ought to contribute largely for the purpose which it was the object of the Bill to effect. He greatly feared that if it were once understood that the nation at large was to defray the expense of arresting the fearful calamity which then occupied their attention, the consequence would be a wasteful expenditure. He also feared that the declaration made by a right hon. Gentleman near him (the chief Secretary for Ireland) might in too many instances, be received as a distinct pledge that in all cases which might arise complete remuneration would be made. In his apprehension there should be no remuneration unless a case of necessity were very clearly made out by the local authorities.
Sir Thomas Freemantleagreed fully with those hon. Members who thought that there would be great difficulty in obtaining assistance of an efficient character from the parish, or even the county rates. It was notorious that there were great difficulties in collecting the amount necessary for the present demands upon them.
Mr. Baringsaid, that cases might occur which would be beyond the means of the parish rates; and, on the other hand, if 348 people in general, and especially parish authorities, thought they could call indefinitely upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they would make such a power a pretext for burthening the nation at large with the expense of maintaining their own poor. The arrangement which he thought afforded the best chance of success was, that the immediate expense should be borne in those quarters where by law it ought properly to rest, and where the means of the district proved indisputably insufficient; then, but not till then, should the Privy Council interpose and grant aid.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that though there had not been any previous communication between him and his hon. friend on the subject, yet there was not much difference in their sentiments. They need not go on arguing extreme cases, it was enough that in principle, there was no important difference between them. A clause might be introduced into the Bill, which would render it necessary that before any sums were issued under the sanction of the Privy Council, there should be a properly authenticated certificate, setting forth that the charges sought to be defrayed were incurred for the prevention or cure of Cholera, and were in their nature extraordinary, and had nothing to do with the usual maintenance of the poor of the district from which the application proceeded. To take an example, there was the parish of St. Paul's, Deptford; that was a parish which the inhabitants of the county of Kent would naturally enough regard rather in the nature of a metropolitan than of a county parish, and he thought it evidently one of those cases which ought to be provided for out of the national funds. For his part, he did not at all see how it could be rendered imperative upon vestries to make the necessary provision, and he thought that precautions should be taken to avoid anything like complex machinery. He was favourable to the Bill being read a second time that night, and before the following day some improvements might be devised and moved in the Committee.
§ Lord Althorpwas ready to acknowledge that many of the suggestions which had been thrown out in the course of the present conversation were worthy to be considered. He hoped that, under the urgent circumstances of the case, the House would allow the Bill to be read a first and second lime that night, and be committed on the following day. He did not anticipate that 349 it would be necessary to introduce any additional clauses.
Mr. Goulburnwished that, with as little delay as possible, some arrangements should be made for making advances to the several parishes requiring aid, for the necessity was too urgent to be trifled with.
§ Leave given, Bill brought in accordingly, and read a first and second time.