Mr. C. W. Wynnthen came forward to propose the remaining Army Estimates., He moved that the sum of 376,111l. 7s. 6d. be granted to defray the expenses of the charge for recruiting and other miscellaneous expenses, for his Majesty's Land Forces.
Colonel Daviesobjected to the large amount of the Army Estimates. The Government was pledged to economy, and when the Committee found an increase of 250,000l. in the Army Estimates, he thought his Majesty's Ministers were bound to give better reasons for the increase than they had done. If the Army Estimates were referred to a Committee, he pledged himself to prove that a larger education might be made in the expense, without impairing the efficiency of the military establishments. The present Secretary at War was not a heaven-born Minister; and, 434 with all respect, he must tell him, that he was profoundly ignorant of all matters connected with the army. The right hon. Gentleman had never spoken, he believed, on an army estimate, until he was appointed Secretary at War. It was too much the case in the present Ministry, and others, to put gentlemen into offices, for political purposes, without considering how far they were fitted to fill those offices. With the exception of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston), and perhaps one other person, there was no one in the Cabinet, who, if orders were given to march, would know whether he should put out his right or his left leg foremost. As the late Ministry and the present were both pledged to keep up the establishments, he should not divide the Committee; but he protested against the amount, as unnecessarily large.
§ Lord George Lennoxsuggested, that the riding establishment at St. John's Wood, was considered by cavalry officers to be an unnecessary expense, and one that might be got rid of without detriment to the public service. The dépôt at Maid-stone was also unnecessary, and ought to be removed to Chatham.
§ Sir Henry Hardingewas not a cavalry officer, and should not, therefore, give any opinion for himself; but be happened to know, that the present Commander-in-chief was impressed with the great utility of the riding establishment; and he believed that the noble Lord had not given a correct account of the prevalent opinion of cavalry officers.
§ An Hon. Member, as Colonel of a cavalry regiment, felt himself called upon to express an opinion in favour of the riding establishment, which, he contended, was of great use, because it gave an uniform character to the riding throughout the service. It would be more beneficial, however, he thought, but for the parsimony of the Government, which prevented proper discipline from being enforced at the establishment at St. John's Wood.
Mr. C. W. Wynnobserved, that he had no doubt the gallant officer (Col. Davies), who had made such strong remarks on his ignorance of the duties of his office, would have filled that office himself with more advantage to the country than he could pretend to do; and as the office was likely soon to become vacant, it was to be hoped his Majesty's Government would not overlook the merits of the gallant Colonel. 435 He was certainly of opinion, that a man of very moderate abilities might, if he chose to take the trouble to give attention to the subject, very easily, and in a short time, roaster the knowledge required for the situation which he had the honour to hold. With regard to the riding establishments, he confessed that he formerly entertained great doubts as to the propriety, and even the expediency, of continuing them up to their present extent; but officers of the very highest authority in these matters, eyen up to the Commander-in-chief, had expressed themselves to be in favour of them; and it was certain, also, that they had produced the greatest good to the cavalry, by introducing an uniform system of equitation into all horse regiments.
Mr. Humeremarked, that so long as this country continued to act on the policy which had for many years been her guide —that of interfering with the foreign continental powers—it was not possible that her present military establishment could be reduced to any great extent. He had ever been much averse from this system of interference in the settlement of foreign Powers, and he now condemned most decidedly the intervention by this Government in the affairs of Belgium. He was disposed to predict that the consequence would be, either England must withdraw from all interference in the affairs of that State, which she would do with disgrace, or that, if she persisted in her present policy, the inevitable result would be a war. With regard to the Estimates now before the Committee, he considered it utterly needless to cavil at small sums; he looked forward to a period when a reduction in their amount pf one million would be effected, and that period, he trusted, was not far distant.
§ Mr. Irvingprofessed himself a friend to ships, colonies, and commerce. He contended, that this country would never have been able to have maintained her station and dignity amongst the family of European Powers, had she not acted on the system which the hon. member for Middlesex now so strongly condemned—that, namely, of maintaining herself constantly in a condition ready for war. He, for one, highly approved of the preparations which had been made for hostilities, and would have been glad to see those preparations carried on, on a scale still more extended, for England would thereby do more than could be done in any other manner to pre- 436 serve that peace in Europe which it was the interest of every Power to maintain. He trusted, therefore, that the best interests of the country would never be sacrificed to any sordid and unworthy motives of economy. He was disposed to think that, if any man in the country had done more than another to depreciate the importance and to undervalue the resources of England, the hon. member for Middlesex was that man. He rejected the sordid economy recommended by that hon. Member, which had only reference to matters of pounds, shillings, and pence, instead of taking into account the great and leading interests of the country. He denied that there was any such unusual distress as had been represented to that House, for he was inclined to believe, that it was not greater at these times than it had been during former periods of her history.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that the hon. member for Bramber had paid a high compliment to the hon. member for Middlesex, in attributing to him the attention which the House now fixed on the pounds, shillings, and pence of the country; for he had, in doing that, only called their attention to matters which it was one of the most important duties of that House to examine most carefully into. He entirely coincided in the opinion of the hon. member for Middlesex, and in the observations which had fallen from him, with respect to the interference of this country with foreign European States.
Mr. Humewas surprised to hear an English merchant, like the hon. member for Bramber, utter such a sentiment, as that financial matters were unworthy of attention. What was it led to our present load of debt, and to the continued extravagant expenditure of years, but the votes of the hon. member for Bramber, and the hon. Members professing similar principles, who filled that House, and who supported the Minister of the day in all his extravagance? He would tell that hon. Member that he (Mr. Hume) had never underrated the resources of this country; on the contrary, he had always complained of the misrule and the mismanagement by which those resources had been ill-applied and misdirected; and he had always contended, that if that misrule were once removed, the country was fully able to right itself.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, the House had already agreed to the number of men voted 437 for the year, when it might have been proper to discuss the policy of the measure; but on that vote, which was for the contingencies of the service, such a discussion was misplaced.
§ Resolution agreed to.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that a sum not exceeding 124,522l. 8s. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charge of the General, Staff, and Medical Officers, in Great Britain, Ireland, and Foreign Stations, excepting the East Indies, The right hon. Gentleman stated, that his noble friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had directed his attention to the Staff in the Colonies? and he hoped, before the end of the year, to be able to make a large reduction.
Colonel Daviesthought, that a great reduction might still be made in the Foreign Staff, and especially in that of North America. In the Ionian Islands, too, considerable saving might be made under that head.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthought that some reductions in the Staff in the Canadas might hereafter be made. Inquiries were then making upon the subject.
§ Sir H. Hardingedefended the vote, and thought that none of the General Officers could be dispensed with in the colonies. The appointments were chiefly conferred upon those whose length of service entitled them to the gratitude of their country.
Mr. Humeexpressed a hope that the time was near when those Governors would not be allowed to draw their military pay together with their civil allowance as governors. The Utmost extravagance prevailed in those departments. As an instance of it, he would state, that the Commander-in-chief in England received nine guineas a day; while the Commander-in-chief in Canada received the same sum, though he had nothing to do in comparison, and had extra allowances. The country ought not to be put to the expense of one shilling for the military establishment of the Canadas; and it was well known that this was the sentiment of the Canadians themselves. The establishment of that colony was scandalously extravagant. He objected also to the extravagance of having four Adjutant-generals, and four Quarter-master-generals, at head-quarters in England in time of peace. But the whole was a system of extravagance, against which he protested in the strongest manner, but which, he hoped, would be done 438 away in better times, when pounds, shillings, and pence, were more attended to.
§ Resolution agreed to.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that the sum of 103,897l. be granted for allowances to the principal Officers of public military departments of Great Britain and Ireland.
Mr. Humethought the vote exhibited an instance of pure extravagance, for in 1796 the whole of this head of expenditure did not exceed 46,000l.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the number of clerks had been reduced since the war from 109 to 60, and he defied the hon. member for Middlesex to show that the business of the war department could be conducted with a smaller number.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that no new appointments had taken place for four years, and the numbers had been reduced as low as possible.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ The sum of 12,420l. was voted for medicines and surgical materials for the land forces without remark.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that the sum of 33,855l. be voted for the charge of garrisons at home and abroad.
Mr. Humeconsidered this as merely a vote for sinecures. Many of the garrisons had not a single gun, or one implement of war; and as parliamentary influence was soon to be at an end, 20,000l. out of this sum might be saved. He should watch narrowly if any of these governorships became vacant, and if Ministers filled up the places by new appointments he should know what course to pursue.
§ Sir H. Hardingehoped that these places could not be reformed, for the noble Lord who had brought forward the measure of Reform would find that the Finance Committee had acknowledged them to afford the best means of rewarding meritorious services.
§ Colonel Sibthorpapproved of what had fallen from the gallant Officer, and could not support the opinions of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Warburtonwished to know what public services had been performed by the governor of Dartmouth for the 1741. a-year he received.
§ Sir H. Hardingeadmitted that this appointment was objectionable. The place had, however, been held by one family for twenty years, but when it became vacant, a different character of appointment would 439 be established. The argument upon this place had been repeated till it had become threadbare.
Mr. R. Gordondisapproved of the appointment. It was not conferred upon a deserving military officer, it was a mere sinecure.
§ Mr. G. Robinsonthought that the island of Placentia presented a similar instance of an objectionable appointment.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, it was not the duty of his office to go through a justification of every department.
Mr. C. W. Wynncould not possibly go through the services of every individual who filled these situations. It was a part of the prerogative of the Crown to fill them up, and nothing could be worse than to teach officers to look to that House for a reward of their services.
Mr. Humewas surprised at the truly unconstitutional and objectionable language of the hon. Member, It was the prerogative of the Crown to grant appointments; but it was for that House alone to say whether it would pay the salaries.
Mr. C. W. Wynnacknowledged that the House had the power of determining if the situations should exist; but if they did exist, it was the prerogative of the Crown to fill them up.
§ Mr. Beaumontadvised the Committee to put off this discussion till they had a reformed Parliament.
§ On this vote the Committee divided when there appeared, For the grant 95; Against it 19 —Majority for Ministers,
§ The grant of 5,627l. for the Military College at Sandhurst was agreed to after Mr. Hume had protested against the propriety of continuing a salary of 1,000l. a year to the governor.
§ The House resumed.