§ Mr. Humepresented a Petition from certain owners and occupiers of land in the neighbourhood of Rochester, in the county of Kent, which was, he observed, of a very important nature. It related to the subject of Tithes, and therefore interested, not merely the petitioners, but all persons in the community. On this account it was certainly worthy the serious attention of the House. A very great change had taken place in the minds of men, of late years, with respect to this subject, as the hon. Baronet near him, who was present at a public 819 meeting, recently held at Penenden-heath, must be well aware. What, he asked, had happened at that meeting? Why, to the astonishment of the nobility and gentry who were there assembled, though the meeting was called for a very different purpose, a resolution was proposed and carried, having for its object the removal of the Tithe-system; and at a meeting subsequently held near Rochester, a similar resolution was voted. It was quite evident, from what had lately occurred, that a general feeling against the continuance of the Tithe-system prevailed, and certainly, in his opinion, it was high time that the system should be removed. In many instances he believed the clergy were very moderate in their demands, and did not insist on what they might call for according to law; but in other cases he had reason to know that Tithes were exacted without scruple, and with the utmost severity. He was instructed to say, and he concurred in the truth of the statement, because it was borne out by his own inquiries in the county of Kent, as well as in other parts of the country, that the Tithe-system was the cause why there were so many individuals unemployed in different parishes. He was quite sure, if the Tithes were removed, that many persons would employ labourers for the purpose of improving their property, which, under the existing system, they could not think of doing. In one instance which came under his own observation, a farmer, who wished to get rid, as far as he could, of the burthen imposed by the Poor-laws, gave up to one of the poor a piece of land for the cultivation of a crop of potatoes. No sooner, however, were the potatoes taken from the ground, than the clergyman sent in his claim, and left the individual by whose labour the crop had been reared, and for whose use it was intended, little or nothing. Now, when this was the case,—when the system operated so injuriously,—he thought the Legislature was bound to take the subject into serious consideration. It was not only injurious to the country at large, and especially the agricultural interest, but it operated to the disadvantage of religion itself. It was impossible to conceive a system which generated greater mischief. It was a system which created hatred and ill-feeling between the pastor and his flock, who ought to be united together by the ties of kindness and mutual respect; it was a 820 system, therefore, which, as it appeared to him, his Majesty's Ministers ought to try to abolish. It was the most onerous and heavy of taxes. If they looked round the world, they would find that the united Umpire was the only place in which Tithes were severely collected. The petitioners stated, first, that in the present state of distress great relief would be afforded by the abolition of Tithes, a tax which, by drawing so large a share of the gross produce of the land, was alike injurious to the community in general, to the agriculturists in particular, and to the best interests of religion. To the community, by unavoidably increasing the price of articles of most general and necessary consumption—to the agriculturist, by subjecting them to various vexatious restrictions in the cultivation of the land, and by depriving them of the ability to compete with the foreign grower, or to contend against the importation of grain, which it is the present policy of this country to encourage—and to religion, by proving a fruitful source of discord between the clergyman and his parishioners, and so destroying that harmony upon the continuance of which the success of his spiritual labours chiefly depends. They stated, however, that "In urging the abolition of this impolitic tax, they disclaimed, with the utmost sincerity, any desire to advocate a system of spoliation; on the contrary, they fully admitted the vested rights of private patrons and lay impropriators, as well as the claims of the present incumbents to a life-interest in their present incomes; but, due regard being paid to these, they maintain, that the Tithe-tax is, equally with all other taxes, properly the subject of Legislative disposal; in opposition to the argument now much relied on, that Tithes having been given for the maintenance of religion, are therefore, inalienable. The Roman Catholic might, with some plausibility, advance such a claim to their recovery, they having been originally granted for the support of his creed, but the Protestant can found his right upon the law of the land only—upon that law which, as it gave, can also modify or take away. The petitioners, however, and to this, as a specimen of the feelings of the people, he particularly called the attention of the House, stated that they did not think any such support necessary for the Church. They say that "It has been deemed necessary to accompany 821 all the plans heretofore proposed for the repeal of this objectionable tax with a substitute affording an equivalent income to the clergy; it is however evident, that, although a commutation might remove the inconvenience of the Tithe-system, yet it would afford no diminution of taxation; and as all taxes, in whatever shape imposed fall ultimately upon labour, that the inability to compete with the less taxed labour of other countries would remain unabated. But the petitioners confidently submit, that the time has at length, arrived, when it ceases to be necessary to provide a substitute of this nature, as they consider that, however essential the aid of wealth and honours may have hitherto been to the Church of England, to enable her to lure to her service men of learning and talent, to advocate the truth and excellence of her doctrines and discipline, the necessity for such aid happily no longer exists. This task has been so ably performed as to leave nothing further to be expected or desired, and it may be fairly assumed that the Established Religion can now be safely left to its own intrinsic excellence for its future support. The well-paid labours of those eminent men, who, attracted by the splendid rewards of the Church, have enlisted in her cause, have so simplified the clerical duties as to make them practicable by persons of ordinary capacities and acquirements; to such an extent, indeed, as to render the functions of the clergy of the establishment almost entirely ministerial; for its comprehensive Liturgy, by supplying all the formularies of devotion, whether for prayer or praise, imprecation or benediction, disavowal or belief, and also strictly enjoining the various occasions upon which they are to be respectively used, affords no opportunity for the exercise of judgment, the exhibition of talent, or the display of learning." The petitioners stated also, with perfect truth, that the duties of these clergymen, for which such large sums have been paid, might be performed by almost any person. "Nor," they say, "do the duties of the preacher, any more than the minister require an education superior to that which is usually bestowed upon the middling class of society; for the inexhaustible stores of invaluable sermons which have emanated from the labours of those highly-gifted divines who have, at different periods, shed a lustre upon the English Church, afford a fund of 822 instruction admirably adapted for every purpose, and to select from which requires but a moderate portion of literary attainments. The qualifications for the proper performance of these functions being few, and the acquisition of them not requiring expense, as they consist principally of propriety of demeanour, and the possession of the natural advantages of suitable voice and delivery, but moderate stipends would be necessary to ensure a sufficient number of competent candidates, and the payment of these stipends might be safely left to the generosity of their respective congregations; for the petitioners consider that it would be a libel upon the members of the Established Church to doubt for a moment their liberality for this purpose, when it is seen how respectably the different Dissenting Congregations maintain their pastors, and how readily they supply large sums for the erection of chapels and establishment of schools." The petitioners expressed an opinion, which he thought all history confirmed, that there was no occasion for the Legislature to provide for the welfare of religion. It was well known, in fact, that religion flourished most where political establishments for its support were unknown. The petitioners said, that in their plans of reform there were no incomes from the State, for future Archbishops, Bishops, and the other dignitaries of the Hierarchy. But the admirers of Episcopacy need experience no alarm on that account, for the history of the early periods of the Church satisfactorily shows that the care of suitably providing for all orders of its establishment may be safely intrusted to the proper feelings of the people. In that he coincided, and thought that Scotland and the United States were living examples of the truth, that to provide large establishments for the clergy, did but starve religion. He, for one, should be glad to see the Church Establishment of England cut down, and he cordially concurred with the petitioners in the concluding part of their prayer, thinking with them that the best way to preserve the Church of England would be to reform it. They say that they have thus sketched the outlines of a scheme of reformation, which, when matured, would, they believe, work well, be generally approved, and render the abolition of Tithes easily practicable. This plan would receive the approbation of many, who consider a 823 wealthy priesthood as peculiarly unfitted to inculcate the precepts of Christianity, and who regard the unexpensive provision for its primitive teachers, as indicative of the desire of its Founder, that his servants should look, not to riches or rank, but to a reward of a far different nature, as the recompense for their labours. Others, who are desirous of upholding the Church of England, would truly calculate that its adoption would tend to ensure the stability of that now tottering fabric, as, when shorn of its wealth and temporal honours, it would cease to be the object of attack, cither of the financier or reformer. Those who are enamoured of the beauty and sublimity of the language of its liturgy, or impressed with the conviction of the truth and importance of its creed, would most effectually protect these from innovation, by confining the office to a class of men who, from their functions being ministerial, would have neither opportunity nor temptation to deviate from the path of orthodoxy; whilst the community in general, and the agriculturists in particular, finding themselves relieved from an oppressive tax, would hail the reform with unalloyed satisfaction. The petitioners, therefore, pray your honourable House to take the necessary steps to effect an early abolition of the Tithe-tax—a measure which would give more satisfaction to the country, and reflect greater credit upon the Legislature, than any enactment that has been carried for centuries past; and, when coupled with the boon of religious liberty, lately so liberally granted, would entitle the present Parliament to be mentioned in terms of the most glowing eulogium, by the historian of the United Kingdom." He wished to call the attention of Ministers to this subject, as it respected Ireland. If the people of England were beginning to complain of Tithes, what must the people of Ireland do, whose situation was so much worse than that of the people of England. If in England the people found it difficult to pay Tithes to clergymen of their own religious persuasion, how much more disadvantageously circumstanced were the great body of the people of Ireland, who were obliged to support a clergy that did not belong to their Church, while at the same time they were called on, by feelings of duty, to pay their own pastors? The right hon. Gentleman who, on the preceding evening, had expressed so much anxiety for the purity and stability of the 824 Church, would do well to turn this subject in his mind; for he might rest assured, that the Established Church was threatened with more danger from the existence of the Tithe-system, than possibly could arise from allowing the Jews to have a full participation in the rights of British subjects. If the hon. member for Dorset were present, he (Mr. Hume) would ask him to propose a resolution, pledging the House to put an end to sinecures in the Church in a like manner as it had been proposed to do away with State sinecures. Clergymen should not be allowed to eat in idleness the revenues of offices of which they omitted to perform the duties, as but too many of them did. 11,000 livings in England were held by about 6,000 clergymen, the duties of nearly one-half the livings being performed by deputy. Under such circumstances it was not surprising that petitions should be sent to that House against our Church Establishment. Norfolk had petitioned as well as Kent, and as there was no reform which would be of more benefit to the people than that of our Church Establishment, so he thought there was none so likely to excite a lively interest in the people, and make them send petitions to Parliament.
Sir R. H. Inglisprotested against the doctrine of the hon. Member, which he had then advanced with more than his usual hardihood. He denied that the clergy were to be considered, like the military, the stipendiaries of the State, and denied that the State had the power of dealing with their incomes as it might deal with the pay of soldiers. He asserted that the one-tenth of the produce of the land was as much the property of the Church as the remaining nine-tenths were the property of the owners of the soil. One-third of the Tithes, however, was the property of lay impropriators, and that was exacted with more rigour than the two-thirds which were in the hands of churchmen.
§ Mr. Protheroeadmitted, that the clergy were not under the control of the State exactly like soldiers, but he thought, nevertheless, that they were liable to be called to account by the public for their management of Church property. He was not prepared to argue against a Church Establishment, and on that account was anxious that the clergy should obviate objections, by discharging their duties properly, in proportion to the amount of the salaries which they received.
§ Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that there was no body of men who discharged their duties more conscientiously than the clergy of the Established Church, as far as he was acquainted with their character. He denied that the petition agreed to at Penenden-heath expressed the sense of the county of Kent on the subject of Tithes. If the Tithe-system required amelioration, there was a bill before Parliament to effect that object, and it would be more appropriate to take the discussion on that bill, than upon the presentation of a petition.
Mr. F. Palmersaid, that the proportion of Tithe to rent was much more than one-tenth, which the hon. Baronet claimed for the clergy. He knew an instance in which, four years ago, the rent of a farm was 600l., the Tithe amounted to 140l.; when, in consequence of the depressed state of agriculture, the rent was reduced to 500l., an application was made by the tenant to reduce the Tithe. The application was refused, the Tithe-owner telling him, "As your rent has been reduced, you will be the better able to pay my Tithe."
Mr. Baringsaid, on a former occasion he had put a hypothetical case, namely,—that if the revenues of certain sees (he had those of London and Canterbury in his eye, although he did not name them) became worth upwards of 100,000l. a year, it might be proper for Parliament to reduce, and make a more equal distribution of those revenues. He had reason to believe, both from the statements of a right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London) in another place, which he implicitly credited, and from other sources of information, that very exaggerated ideas were entertained of the value of certain sees, and he now wished to say so. The income of the see of Winchester, during the first year of the present Bishop's incumbency, had been stated at 90,000l. He believed this to be a gross exaggeration. He deduced one consolatory fact from the statement of the right rev. Prelate, when he admitted, that if the revenues of sees should ever amount to the enormous sums represented, it would become the duty of Parliament to divide them. The Church made a great mistake in shunning inquiry. Undoubtedly the amount of Tithe was great; in the neighbourhood where he sometimes resided in Hampshire, it was from one-third to one-fourth of the rent. But he must say that, generally speaking, 826 what the Church took was much less than it was entitled to. The system of commutation had worked well in Ireland, and might be attended with beneficial effects in this country. The wit of man could not devise a mode of payment more calculated than the present to prove inconvenient to agriculture, or more inconsistent with the interests of religion.
Mr. Estcourtconcurred in what had fallen from the hon. Baronet, but as there would be more fitting occasions to discuss the merits of the Church than on the presentation of a petition, he should say nothing on the subject.
§ Mr. Humecould not see anything delicate in the question, and certainly clergymen never had any delicacy in the collection of their Tithes. No body of men in the country were more indelicate than the clergy. They had no scruple in exciting ill-will, and took one-third, and not one-tenth, of the property of the country with the greatest coolness. They had certain duties attached to their situations, which they swore to discharge, and when they did not discharge those duties, they were guilty of a fraud, and received money upon false pretences. He wanted to see the Church of England put upon the same footing as the Church of Scotland, and then he should be satisfied. To the hon. Baronet, the member for Oxford, he should only reply, that if he did not like discussions of this sort upon petitions he (Mr. Hume) was quite ready to fix an open day for bringing the subject forward upon regular motion.
§ Mr. Protheroewished the House to remark, that there was a broad distinction between the clergy and religion. If anybody talked of dilapidated churches, neglect of duty in the education of the poor, or the exaction of Tithes, then it was a matter of great delicacy. Religion might be attacked with much less ceremony.