§ Mr. Perceval moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee to consider further of the Supply to be granted to his Majesty. On the Motion of the same hon. Gentleman, the Ordnance Estimates were ordered to be referred to the said Committee.
§ In the Committee, Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum not exceeding 82,046l. be granted to defray the expenses of the corps of Royal Sappers and Miners, &c., for the year 1830.
§ Mr. Humeobjected to the grant, and stated that the force was too great. In 1792 there were only fifty officers of Engineers, while at present there were 250. The number of Engineer officers was greater now than in 1802, although at that time Bonaparte wielded the power of France, and 306 nearly all Europe was arrayed against us, and even then the number was three times as great as in the peace of 1792. The expense had been increased from 05,000/. in 1792 to 83,000l. at present; the number of officers had been increased from 113 to 250. He thought that both the expense and the number of officers was disproportionately great, and they ought to be materially reduced.
§ Mr. Percevalsaid, that the hon. Member was mistaken in saying that the Engineer officers were more numerous now than in 1802. The fact was, that if the increase of places where they were required, and the different distribution of their duties were taken into account, their number would be found to be proportionately less than at that period. The number then required for the Colonies was sixty-nine, but at present no more than sixty were employed. The whole establishment of Sappers and Miners was under the command of Engineer officers, and these, together with the number employed upon surveys and in the Irish districts, and those required in the barrack department, fully accounted for the apparent increase of the number of this corps. To all these circumstances he might subjoin the number of Colonies added since the time referred to, and when every thing was considered, he was justified in saying, that comparing the different services they now performed, the number was less than at that period. He might also mention, that the Engineer corps must be kept up in time of peace for the instruction of young officers.
§ Mr. O'Connellsaid, that additional taxes were about to be imposed on Ireland, if, indeed, the people did not, in a constitutional manner, so strongly oppose the measure as to prevent the right hon. Gentleman from carrying it into effect. He wished to prevent the necessity of this, by reducing the establishments, for Ireland was, with respect to her power to bear taxation, a very poor country, and really not able to support the burthen of any more direct taxes. If, therefore, the hon. member for Montrose would propose any reduction of the Irish expenditure, he should have his hearty support.
§ Colonel Trenchdefended the Engineer corps, which, he said, was incessantly employed, and the officers of which supplied the place of jobbing architects and surveyors' clerks, and being paid 2l. 10d. a day, saved the country many thousand pounds.
Lord Edward Somersetsaid, that this establishment must necessarily be kept up, for if it were destroyed, its re-organization would be extremely difficult, not to say impossible, when circumstances should call for it.
§ Mr. Humedid not think these men were profitably employed; they only wasted the materials, for their work itself was not wanted. Having the men we were compelled to find them employment. A sum of 389,000l. had been expended on public works in the space of seven years, and in the next five years it was proposed to spend 535,000l. more. He thought that we were not in a condition to spend such sums, and therefore they ought not to be granted.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum of 83,626l. be granted to his Majesty for the expense of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, for the Colonies, and for Ireland, the sum of 200,000l. having already been granted for the same service on a vote of credit.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that notwithstanding the recommendations of the Finance Committee, that this corps should be reduced—it was now to a man as numerous, and to a pound as expensive, as it was before those recommendations had been made.
Lord E. Somersetdefended the vote, on the ground that the new Colonies required more artillery. The new Driver corps, also did the duties of Artillery men.
§ Mr. Humedenied, that these things were sufficient to justify this increase of expense in time of peace. By keeping up so large a corps we did but add to the claims on our Pension List. The Lieutenant Commandants were continued, although they could not perform their duty. At least the Government said so, for they insisted on maintaining the office of Lieutenant General of the Ordnance, on the ground that he alone could perform the duty of inspecting the Artillery. Surely both branches of expense were not necessary. He had often been accused of entertaining extravagant ideas, but no ideas he had ever entertained were half so extravagant as those of the Government, who spent the public money without the slightest remorse. He thought the reduction in this department ought to be to the extent of 2,000 men.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ The next Vote proposed by Mr. Perceval was for a grant of 37,111l. for the expense of the Royal Artillery, including a Rocket Troop, and the charge for a Riding-house.
308§ Mr. Humedefied human ingenuity to point out the real utility of the Rocket Troop in time of peace.
Lord E. Somersetobserved, that the same objection would apply to every other corps. A scientific troop of Rocket-men could not be framed in a day, upon a temporary emergency.
§ Mr. O'Connellsuggested that the Engineers might soon be converted into Rocket-men. It was admitted that this body of men was of no present use, but it was assumed that the country must bear the expense, as it might be of use at some future period. This sort of proceeding and argument indicated a total absence of sympathy between the extravagant Government and the suffering people.
§ Lord Howicksaid, that efficient economy was not promoted by these trifling objections. These corps ought to be kept up in peace, that they might be ready in war.
§ Mr. O'Connelldid not feel lessened by the reproof of the noble Lord any more than he should feel exalted by his praise. The objections to these votes were founded upon a due regard to the interests of the people, who still sent some Members to Parliament, though the noble Lord might not be one of them.
§ Sir H. Hardingeremarked, that the Rocket Troop consisted of only eighty-six men, who performed all the duties of horse artillery.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that it was almost a farce to submit these votes to the House, if, when the sums were small, objections to them were deemed insignificant, and when they were large, resistance was considered an attack upon the great and important interests of the country. In his opinion all these establishments were too numerous and too expensive.
§ Mr. Dohertysaid, he thought the hon. member for Aberdeen was the last person who ought to object to the maintenance of a small but effective corps, for the hon. Member himself belonged to a body which made up by activity for its want of strength and numbers.
§ Vote carried.
§ Mr. Percevalproposed a Resolution for granting 1,223l. for the Director General of the Field Train, and for the Field Train Department.
§ Mr. Percevalreplied, by reading a description of them from the Report of the 309 Finance Committee. He has to inspect the field train, and see that it is complete and perfect. The emoluments of the office were to be reduced on the death of the present holder of the office, who was seventy-five years of age.
§ Vote carried.
§ The next Resolution was for 9,127l. for the expense of the Medical Establishment of the Military Department of the Ordnance.
§ Mr. Humebegged to know whether the recommendations of the Finance Committee on this subject had been attended to?
Mr. Maberlythought that the department might be abolished altogether without injury to the service.
§ Sir H. Hardingeobserved, that the establishment at Woolwich would be dispensed with by degrees, and as fast as the present members were diminished by the course of nature and other causes.
§ Resolution carried.
§ On the question that 3,402l. be granted for the establishment of the Civil Officers and Masters of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich,
§ Mr. Humeinquired how many young men were there educated, and how many had been admitted last year?
§ Mr. Humewished further to be informed how many of the Cadets were the sons of Artillery Officers?
Lord Downesadded, that twenty were the sons of Artillery Officers, and ten or twelve the sons of Officers of the Line.
§ Mr. Humecontended that this fact showed that the Military Academy, instead of being applied to the education of the sons of meritorious officers, was made the nursery for favourites who had no claim upon the country, and who were educated at the public expense, like paupers at a charity school.
§ Sir H. Hardingerepelled this charge, and denied that the young gentlemen ought to be considered in the light of paupers educated by public charity; they were entitled to the bounty they received on devoting themselves to the service of their country. He added, that the promises made by Lord Anglesea and his predecessors were fulfilled by Lord Beresford, so far as the cadets were concerned.
Mr. Maberlythought that the country 310 was not called upon to educate the sons of gentlemen for any profession. He confessed that he should be as ready as any hon. Member in that House to agree to a vote for educating young gentlemen for the army, if a sufficient case were made out.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, he was not understood in what he had said. In 1829 there were thirty-two cadets admitted, eighteen of whom were sons of officers, and in 1828, out of twenty-four cadets, eleven were sons of officers. He conceived that a system which cost the country only 3,300l. ought not to be objected to, when so much good was derived from it as had proceeded from the Academy at Woolwich.
§ Mr. Humecalled the attention of the Committee to the fact, that medical men entering the army were not educated at the public expense, and their education was as expensive as that of any other officer in the army, belonging to any branch of the service. What he wished to see was this—that young men should be educated at their own expense, or that of their friends, up to a certain point, and that such scientific education as the service required might be imparted to them at the public expense. Let the public, by all means, give them the scientific information they might require as artillerymen; but he must say, so long as they remained pensioners of the State, by putting it to unnecessary expense for their education, he could not but call them paupers—he called all persons paupers who took the money of the State without giving value for it. Those might not be very courtly terms, but his sense of truth and justice compelled him to use them—there was no Lord nor Lady who had an undeserved and unnecessary pension who was not a pauper. What had the public to do with the education of the Army? There was no education that he knew of requisite for the Army. The general feeling was, that when a young man was fit for nothing else, he ought to be put into the Army or into the Church.
§ Sir Henry Hardingewould affirm, that the hon. Member was most unfairly stigmatising those young men. They were just entering into life, and he was calling them paupers without the slightest foundation. Having now treated that observation with the contempt it deserved, he should proceed—
§ Mr. Humerose to order. The language of the gallant Officer opposite was altogether unbecoming his situation.
Lord Millondid not hear the term contempt applied to his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen, or to any other Gentleman; it was perfectly competent to any Member to speak contemptuously of any remark made: the contempt had nothing personal in it.
§ Sir Henry Hardingehad never meant to attach any tiling personal to his observations. He merely desired that it should go forth to the public that he felt contempt for the stigma which had been cast, or rather attempted to be cast, upon those young gentlemen. He had no intention of offering any offence to the hon. member for Aberdeen, who, throughout the whole of the discussions relating to those Estimates, canvassed them with so much good humour, that nothing could be farther from his wish than to treat the remarks of the hon. Member with any undue severity. The gallant Officer then proceeded to say, that what the hon. member for Aberdeen had said respecting the education of medical men was not of much weight, for their education could not fail of being serviceable to them out of the army; whereas that of artillery officers could be of no value to them except in that service. If they wished to keep the corps of Artillery, they had better look to the preservation of the Academy of Woolwich.
§ Lord Howickconcurred in much of what had fallen from the hon. member for Aberdeen. He thought that in this case the public ought to provide the means of education, and that the individuals profiting by it ought to pay for the advantages so afforded to them.
Mr. R. Gordondefended himself and his friends from the accusation of offering indiscriminate opposition to the votes proposed for the public service. Such accusations were exceedingly improper and undeserved. The first and highest duty of the representatives of the people was scrupulously to watch the expenditure of the public money. He wished to know why the Academy at Woolwich could not be placed upon the same footing as the Military College. The students there paid not only more than was necessary, but enough to defray the charges of all the gratuitous education connected with the establishment The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that none but those who were fit for nothing else went into the army; that was, he conceived, quite a mistake: every prudent man in these times would send his son into the army—it was the high road to promotion: 312 to belong to the military profession, was at present the sure mode of securing political advancement. How long this military system—this barrack administration—night last, he would not take upon himself to say; but now the cleverest member of each family would, as a matter of course, be sent into the army. He wished to know from the gallant Officer opposite, why the sons of civilians should not pay at Woolwich as well as at the Military College?
§ Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that the fact of young gentlemen being educated at Woolwich, fixed upon them a prohibition, or rather excluded them from serving his Majesty in any other capacity than as artillery officers. Placing them under that disability he thought was enough, without adding to it a charge for an education useless for any other purpose of life.
Mr. Warburtonthought, that if the gratuitous education were removed, there would be no necessity for restricting those persons to one branch of the service.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that though our artillery might be excellent, he believed it would be admitted that our Navy was as good as any in Europe, yet our College at Portsmouth paid its own expenses.
§ Mr. Humecontended, that the expense of this establishment was not merely 3,000l. the amount of the present vote. The whole expense of living, servants, and other items, exceeded 11,000l. a year. He really saw no reason why a bounty should be paid to young men to induce them to enter the Artillery: when a scarcity existed it would be time enough to talk of bounties.
§ Sir J. Wrottesleyadvocated the principle of permitting parents to educate their children for the service at their own expense, and therefore opposed the present vote.
§ Mr. Humeobjected to the impropriety of having employed the pay appropriated for sixty lieutenants to the support of sixty-four additional cadets.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that the accounts on this subject required explanation, and the vote must be postponed until the accounts were amended.
§ Mr. Perceval, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Sir H. Hardinge declared, that a saving had taken place, and that the application of the money was justified by his Majesty's warrant
Mr. Hume, Mr. Maberly, and others, denied that his Majesty's warrant could override the Act of Parliament, which expressly pointed out the application of it.
A division took place, when there appeared—For the Resolution 131; Against it 59: Majority 72.
| List of the Minority. | |
| Althorp, Lord | Lester, B. |
| Bankes, H. | Maberly, J. |
| Baring, F. | Morpeth, Lord |
| Bentinck, Lord G. | Marshall, W. |
| Benett, J. | Marjoribanks, S. |
| Buck, L. W. | Martin, J. |
| Carter, J. B. | Mostyn, Sir T. |
| Cave, O. | Milton, Viscount |
| Cavendish, W. | Monck, J. B. |
| Clements, Lord | O'Connell, D. |
| Dawson, A. | Power, R. |
| Davies, Colonel | Philips, G. R. |
| Dickinson, W. | Poyntz, W. S. |
| Du Cane, P. | Ponsonby, Hon. G. |
| Ebrington, Viscount | Robinson, G. R. |
| Encomb, Viscount | Robinson, Sir G. |
| Euston, Earl of | Rickford, W. |
| Fortescue, Hon. G. | Ridley, Sir M. W. |
| Graham, Sir J. | Sibthorp, Col. |
| Grattan, H. | Slaney, It. |
| Gordon, R. | Sykes, D. |
| Guest, J. H. | Strutt, Colonel |
| Honywood, W. P. | Taylor, M. A. |
| Hobhouse, J. C. | Thomson, P. |
| Howard, H. | Warburton, H. |
| Howick, Lord | Webb, Colonel |
| Kennedy, F. | Wilbraham, G. |
| Knatchbull, Sir E. | Wood, Alderman |
| Labouchere, H. | Wood,.J. |
| Lambert, J. S. | TELLER. |
| Langston, J. H. | Hume, J. |
§ The next Resolution was for the sum of 587,108/. for defraying the Extraordinaries of the Office of Ordnance for the year 1830, after a deduction of 167,547l. for the sale of old stores.
Mr. Maberly, Mr. Hume, and Mr. R. Gordonopposed taking the votes in this shape, and contended that it should be taken in five separate items; while the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir H. Hardinge, and Mr. Perceval, maintained, that this was the most convenient mode for taking it; and after a longcon versation upon that point, the Chancellor of the Exchequer consented to withdraw the vote, and so to shape it as to meet the views of the hon. Members opposite.
314 On the suggestion of Sir H. Hardinge, the Committee proceeded to the next Resolution, which was for the sum of 4,034l. to defray the expenses of services performed for the Office of Ordnance, and which had not been provided for by Parliament, for 1830. On the question being put on this Resolution,
§ Lord Miltonsaid, he rose to state the objections which he entertained to these Estimates generally. He was desirous to take this opportunity to enter his protest against the whole military system of this country. If he had not long entertained such a sentiment, the remarks which he had heard that evening from the military bench opposite, would induce him to adopt it. A gallant Officer opposite had said, that having been in Paris in 1814, he saw the deficiency of the Artillery there compared with ours, and he asked, would we now break down such a superior establishment? The fact was, that his Majesty's Ministers seemed to take for granted that, in time of peace, England should be prepared for war, not in the way in which our ancestors would keep her prepared, but according to the new-fangled doctrines which a desolating war of a quarter of a century's duration had introduced. He meant to contend, that we ought not to keep up a large standing army in time of peace. Our insular situation protected us against the danger of an attack. It was upon that our ancestors depended for defence, and upon our free institutions, and the spirit of our people which grew out of those institutions. He had to complain not only of the Government but of that House, for maintaining the present extravagant military establishment of this country. He took no blame to himself on that head, for ever since the peace he had voted for a reduction of these estimates; and, in the calamitously prosperous years of 1824 and 1825, when hon. Gentlemen appeared to think they could not vote away the public money fast enough, he was proud to say, that he had gone out in a division of seven upon those estimates. He was opposed to the whole military system of this country. Ministers had made a great noise and parade about the reductions which they proposed to make, but the distress of the country would force them to make still greater reductions. If those who were far from that place could depend on the rumours which went abroad of what passed within it, it was not the declared intention—and if it had been the intention it would have been declared—of 315 Ministers at the opening of the Session to make any reduction in the taxation of the country. They felt, however, at an early period of the Session, the necessity of making some reduction to conciliate the good will of the people. If, then, at the end of fifteen years of peace, Ministers were at last driven to the necessity of reducing taxation, he thought that he was perfectly justified in maintaining that the expenses of the country, during all that long period, had been much too large. Besides the objections which he felt to the magnitude of our expenses, he must say that they appeared to him objectionable, owing to the alterations which they were producing in the character of the nation itself. They were milking us the paltry imitators, at an immeasurable distance, of the great military powers of the Continent. He contended that at the present moment the military establishments of England were monstrous. A standing army of 90,000 men was a monstrous armament for England to maintain. To what dangers were we exposed at present? To the danger of invasion? If so, was it a force of 90,000 men that would prevent our land from being polluted by the hostile tread of the foreigner? No, we must look for safety to the energy of the nation, and to its devotion to its free institutions, which would increase daily, if the House would only yield to the spirit of the times, and give additional strength to all our resources, by a reduction of overgrown establishments. Such were his doctrines; they were unfashionable perhaps, and antiquated, and better suited for the year 1730 than 1830. He was sorry to say that the feeling of the people of England had been corrupted upon this subject. It was not prudent, and perhaps it was not agreeable, to mark such changes; but he was satisfied that the opinions of the country, if he could judge of them by those who were appointed to represent them in that House, were changed, and not changed for the letter, whether viewed in their relation to the spirit of liberty, or in their relation to national independence. If our safety were made to depend on large military institutions, he was sure that sooner or later the time would come when the nation would repent of having trusted to such defences. He had risen upon the present occasion to enter his protest against all the military establishments of the country. He was not going to enter into a discussion of the number of engineers which we ought to keep up, nor of the expediency 316 of voting any given sum to the support of the Military College, though that was a head of expenditure which was not, perhaps, in any respect advisable. He had not gone into any examination of the details of those Estimates, because his view of the question was different from that taken by those who had been discussing them item by item. His objections to them were not so much founded upon pecuniary as upon other and higher considerations.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next grant was for a sum of 300,245l.. for the Superannuated Allowances in the Ordnance, Pensions to Widows, &c.
§ Mr. Humetook that opportunity of asking the right hon. Secretary at War whether, at the present moment, there was any sub-lieutenant of artillery on half-pay.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that there was no sub-lieutenant on half-pay, except such as were disabled and unfit for active service.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that he would take that opportunity of praising the conduct of Government in bringing every officer on half-pay of the Artillery and Marines into full-pay, instead of appointing young men to new commissions. A system, the very reverse of this, had been adopted in the army, by which the country had lost several hundred thousand pounds every year for some years back.
§ Grant agreed to.
§ The next grant was for a sum of 62,655l., for the Consolidated Ordnance and Barrack Superannuations, in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Colonies.
§ Mr. Humeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was intended to allow the Committee which had been recently appointed to examine into the subject of Superannuations, to inquire into the amount of Superannuations already granted, and into the degree in which persons to whom such Superannuations had been granted could be brought back to the public service.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was not intended, when that committee was appointed, to allow it to inquire into the superannuations which had been already granted. As to the propriety of bringing back superannuated persons to the public service, that was decidedly one of the objects to which its inquiries would be directed.
§ Mr. Humeexplained the motives which led him to put that question. About six weeks ago he moved for a return of the number of persons who had been admitted for the first time to civil offices 317 within the last five years. That return he had not obtained, though he thought it very important to know what persons were admitted to office, and to superannuated allowances, during a time when so much talk was made, about reductions. He had been informed that the Secretary at War had recently introduced eight individuals into office for the first, time in his department. Now, if this were the fact, it was hardly defensible, seeing that there were individuals in that department now receiving superannuated pensions to the amount of 25,000l. even year. He wished to know whether there was any truth in this information.
§ Sir H. Hardingehad a very short answer for that question. Since he had been in the War-office, not a single appointment had been made in it. He believed that since the year 1815, not more than four or five clerks had been appointed altogether by his noble predecessor (Lord Palmerston).
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the hon. Member was most likely aware, that some laborious operations had been conducted by the War-office during the last year. Seven or eight of the principal clerks had been sent round to the head-quarters of the different regiments to get in various accounts. During their absence other clerks had boon appointed to perform their duties at a salary of 5.9. a day each. As soon as those inquiries were terminated, those temporary clerks would be dismissed.
§ Grant agreed to.
§ 78,455l. was voted for the Military Store branch in Great Britain, Ireland and the Colonies.
§ The next grant proposed was 66,122l. to defray the Command-pay and Extra-pay to Engineers, and allowances for their servants. It was agreed to, after an observation of Mr. Hume upon the strangeness of Engineers, who received such liberal pay, receiving double pay for any extra command.
§ 115,413l. was granted for Ordnance Works and Repairs for the year 1830.
§ The next grant proposed was 10,4,335l. for repairs of Barracks, and the expenditure of Barrack-masters.
§ Mr. Humeasked why we should pay 7,000l. for the erection of barracks at 318 Gibraltar? Taxes, and heavy taxes too, were levied on all British subjects in that place for the erection of the fortifications, and yet, instead of being applied to that purpose, they were quietly put into his Majesty's pocket. He considered that the taxes thus raised at Gibraltar were illegal,—they were raised by the King's warrant, and not in consequence of any vote of that House. Again, in Malta, 2,697l. was paid for the same object; and yet Ministers refused to tell Parliament either what revenue was raised in Malta, or what they did with it. So, too, in the West Indies, 30,000l. was applied to erect fortifications, though the 4½-percent duties were originally given to the Crown for that purpose. Talk of difficulties! why there could be none in England, when the public money was thus squandered upon objects for which the local governments either had provided, or could provide funds of their own. Again, in Canada, 60,000l. was devoted to barrack-building, independent of 1,000,000l. spent in fortifications. Why the people of England should pay that money, he could not conceive. If we continued to misgovern the Canadas, our barracks and fortifications would avail us not: if we governed them as freemen ought to be governed, they would find a sufficient defence in their own brave bosoms against all the attacks of the United States. At present, owing to our misgovernment, a civil war was all but raging in Canada. For his own part, nothing would please him better than to see the Canadas free and independent. This country would then be free of an annual drain of a million of money, and the Canadas would be prosperous and flourishing states, taking much more of our manufactures than they did in their existing state of thraldom. In Nova Scotia, too, we erected barracks at the public expense; as well as at the Cape of Good Hope, where he saw a charge of 9,000l. debited to the public for the same purpose. That colony would pay all its expenses, if it were not unfortunately kept in leading-strings by its most sapient governors. There was a large charge for the same object under the head of Mauritius and Ceylon, though it had been stated that those colonies would gladly pay all their expenses if we would only admit their sugar at a less duty. Then there was 1,135l. for barrack-building at Sierra Leone, a place which we ought long since to have deserted. He concluded by asserting, that if the House would but appoint a 319 committee to inquire into the expenditure of these sums, this grant would be reduced to a twentieth part of its present amount.
Mr. R. Gordonobserved, that it had been stated that all the expenses of barracks and fortifications in the West Indies ought to be paid out of the 4½-per-cent duties. Now those duties had been misappropriated for a long time past, under various pretexts. His hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had moved for a return of the sums thus obtained during the last few years, and that return had been put into the hands of hon. Members that morning. All persons who held West-Indian property had recently been great sufferers from the depreciation which it had undergone; and as those 4½-per-cent duties were paid in kind, he was afraid, that owing to the depreciation of West-Indian produce, the Crown would not be able to pay the pensions which it had granted upon them. To his great surprise, however, he found, that in the last two years they had doubled, and nearly trebled, their former amount. They used to amount to about 28,000l. or 29,000l.; in the year 1828 they had amounted to 62,000l.; and in the year 1829, to 66,000l. How had this increase been effected? By calling in the aid of his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor General. They had discovered that the King's sugars were not liable to duty; and thus no duty had been paid upon them since the 25th of March, 1826. Thus his Majesty now got the whole profits arising from the sale of the sugar, whilst formerly those profits were diminished by the payment of the duty upon them. He called the attention of the House to this paper, which had only been presented that day, and which had, on that account, perhaps, escaped the vigilant attention of his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Act of Parliament prevented Government from imposing any charges upon these 4½-per-cents in the West Indies, except for the payment of the Church, and some other services. This was the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. The remainder of the expenditure was made up from the general colonial funds.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that the sugar duties had, however, come regularly in, and been carried as usual into the funds of the Exchequer. In 1817, they left a surplus of 2,000l., and in the last year upwards of 66,000l.—where was the balance?
§ The Resolution agreed to.
§ In answer to a question from Mr. Hume,
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the expense of the barrack department had been reduced 42,000l., and that in the year 1825, in consequence of an inquiry instituted by the Duke of Wellington into all the barrack buildings of the Colonies, a great saving, both in point of expense and health, had been obtained by the use of iron bedsteads instead of wooden ones, and instead of hammocks.
§ Mr. Perceval moved, that a sum not exceeding 211,213l. be granted to defray the Civil and Military Contingencies of the Office of Ordnance for the year 1830.
§ [Some conversation ensued upon this Resolution, respecting the expenditure of the Ordnance survey of Ireland, from which it appeared that the Irish grand juries had requested to have the maps made on a particular scale, they contributing part of the expense; the maps were in progress accordingly, but no money had been paid.]
§ The Resolution was agreed to, as well as another of 2,600l. for defraying the charges and fees payable to the Exchequer on account of the Ordnance.
Mr. Maberlysaid, he would, on a future occasion, oppose this mode of receiving with one hand and paying with another in the public accounts.
Mr. Hobhousewished to know whether the barracks at the Mews at Charing Cross, were to be still upheld, to deform the new and expensive improvements made in the same neighbourhood.
§ Mr. Percevalsaid, that quarters would be kept there for the original number of soldiers.
Mr. R. Gordonobjected to these barracks, more particularly as it was intended to billet soldiers on those who sold beer under the new regulations. This would, from the great increase of such traders, take away the excuse for having these barracks for military accommodation.
§ The Resolution agreed to.
§ The House resumed: the Report to be received on Monday.