Mr. C. Grantmoved the order of the day for bringing up the 8 Report of the Committee on the Corn Trade Acts. On the question that the report be brought up,
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that a mistake had gone abroad, arising out of a misrepresentation of what had fallen from him during one of the early discussions on this subject, which he was anxious to correct. It would be in the recollection of the House that on the second day of the discussion, he had stated that he was happy to inform the House, that, at the last market-day in Northampton, his constituents had generally expressed themselves in favour of the propositions of ministers with respect to the Corn-laws. This was what he had said; but he had been represented to have stated, that at a meeting of his constituents at Northampton on the last marketday, they had agreed to resolutions approving of the proposition of ministers on those laws. This he had not said; for nothing of the kind had happened. He had only stated what he had understood to be the opinions of his constituents; but it was fair to state, that their opinions on the propositions of ministers had since undergone a change on this subject, because, in all the discussions they had not been made acquainted with the real merits of the question.
Mr. Denisonwished to put a question to the right hon. gentleman, which he had asked on a former occasion, but which had not received an answer. He wished to know, whether the singular anomaly of taking the averages in the Winchester measure, and buying and selling according to the Imperial measure, were still to continue?
Mr. C. Grantassured the hon. gentleman that his not having answered his question proceeded from no want of courtesy to him, but was wholly accidental. With regard to the measures, the Winchester measure was that in which the averages were already taken by the existing acts; and, as no mention was made of any other measure in the resolutions before the House, it would of course continue.
Mr. Denison.—So that you take the averages with one kind of measure, and buy and sell with the other.
Mr. C. P. Thompsonwas anxious to call the attention of the House to the strange anomaly which this course would involve. In Mark-lane and other markets the imperial measure was generally used for buying and selling corn, Why, he 9 asked, might not the same measure be used for all the other purposes connected with this trade? if it made the difference of the fraction of a farthing in the amount of the duties, he would not press it; but as it made none, he hoped that, for the sake of convenience and uniformity, the one measure would be adopted in all cases.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer beggedto remind hon. gentlemen, that it was impossible, from the prescribed forms of the House, that any alteration could be made in the measure at its present stage. It was in the committee that any proposition to that effect must be originated. Any discussion, therefore, upon that point, must at present be premature and irregular.
Mr. Baringthought that the law ought not to be framed on the Winchester measure, whilst the averages were to be calculated by the Imperial measure, inasmuch as it would lead to infinite confusion and inconvenience. He repeated the recommendation which he had suggested on a former night; namely, that it would be better to raise the standard price to 62s. and use the Imperial measure, than to leave it as it now was at 60s., and use the Winchester measure.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that any inconvenience would arise from the system embraced by the resolutions. As a proof of what he said, he referred to what had occurred since the issuing of the orders in council of the 1st of September last. Since that time a million of quarters had been imported, and the practical men had felt, no inconvenience from calculating the duty upon it by the old measure.
§ Mr. Calcraftcontended, that the inconvenience of the system would be felt in the home and not in the foreign trade. He thought that it would be best to revert to the Winchester measure. If the standard were taken by the Imperial measure at 62s., it would be considered in the country as an additional boon of two shillings granted to the landed interest.
Sir G. Clarkdiffered from the hon. member for Wareham, upon the question of making 62s. the standard price on which the averages ought to be calculated. If the act of parliament distinctly stated the object of the advance of 2s., he was sure the people would never mistake it. He thought the House ought to adhere to the Imperial measure, as it would save 10 them from the confusion created by frequent changes. The hon. baronet went on to speak of the very great confusion that had existed with regard to measures, before the act for the Imperial measure was passed, and of the advantages which had been gained by regulating the standard. If any other measure than the Imperial was in any way recognized in an act of parliament, it would operate as a virtual repeal of the act which had introduced it. He should be sorry to see such an event take place. To avoid such an evil, he should prefer adopting the proposition for an advance of 2s. on the calculations made on the Imperial measure; which he anxiously wished to preserve.
Mr. Davies Gilbertalso made some observations on the confused state in which the commissioners had found the measures in the Exchequer. He agreed that no inconvenience might arise from departing from it among merchants who had large dealings; but he was afraid that inconvenience would arise among uninformed persons, who were not so well able to calculate the difference between the Imperial and the Winchester measure. He thought that 62s. should be fixed as the standard from which the duties rose and fell, and that the Imperial measure alone ought to be used. Besides, after the communications which had been made to foreign governments of the alterations we had introduced into our measures, and after the declarations which some of them had made of their willingness to adopt measures in uniformity with our own, he thought that we ought to adhere to the Imperial measure.
Mr. C. Grantthought that no practical inconvenience would arise from adopting the system marked out in the resolutions.
Mr. Baringexpressed his determination of taking the sense of the House on the suggestion which he had thrown out, on the very first opportunity which the forms of the House would allow him. The hon. member insisted very strongly on the gross inconsistency of calculating the duty upon one measure, and the price upon another.
Sir J. Sebrightsaid, that, if calculations were made upon the Winchester bushel, the common people would think that the Imperial measure was abandoned. He wished an uniformity of measures to be established throughout the country, and preferred the Imperial to the Winchester 11 measure, as it was calculated on a more clear and intelligent principle.
The report was brought up. On the question that it be read,
§ Sir J. Wrottesleyremarked upon the inconvenience arising in his neighbourhood from the confusion of the measures. He was obliged to sell by the Winchester bushel of thirty-two quarts, and bought in one market town at the rate of thirty-six quarts, in another at the rate of thirty-eight quarts, and in another at the rate of forty quarts.
Mr. Warburtonrecommended, that the averages should be calculated not by the old, but by the scale of the Imperial measure.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that if an alteration was made in one instance, it would be necessary that it should be pursued with respect to every species of grain. The calculations now before the House were made, bona fide, according to the Winchester bushel; and an alteration of them would induce the inconvenience of a fraction. This would create very considerable difficulty to those concerned in the corn trade; because, to maintain the relative proportion, in the first instance, they would have to reckon not 1s. but 1s. and the thirty-second part of a shilling. If they altered the proportions, it would take a pretty considerable time before the measure was completed.
Mr. D. Gilbertsaid, that the fraction might, when grain was at a high price, be allowed to the importer, and when at a low price, to the grower.
Lord John Russelldid not think there was any magic in the numbers sixty and twenty, which should induce the right hon. gentleman to adhere to them, which would be the means of continuing the old standard, when a new one had been provided. It would be better to go through the calculations, and to make the Imperial measure the general standard. It was the measure recognized by the legislature, and it would be wrong to call on the country to adopt the old measure, after it had been, in a great degree, given up.
§ Sir G. Clerkthought there could be no difficulty in adopting the proposition of the hon. member for Bodmin. There would then, when wheat was above 60s., be a small fraction in favour of the importer; and when below 60s., a fraction against the importer, and in favour of the home-grower.
Mr. C. Grantconsented, as he saw there was a feeling in the house in favour of the adoption of the Imperial measure, to have the Resolutions recommitted.
The Resolutions were ordered to be recommitted on Monday.