ORDNACE ESTIMATES, (Hansard, 16 February 1827)

§ Sir H. Hardinge
said, that in presenting the Ordnance Estimates to the committee, it would not be necessary for him to detain them with many observations, inasmuch as the estimates were considerably lower than they had been last year. The reductions which had been made, had not been made without great difficulty; and it would only be misleading the committee if he were to hold out to it any hope that those reductions would be permanent. The Ordnance Estimates for the present year were only 970,894l.; last year they were 1,007,671l.; so that they were 36,777l. less this year than they were last. In presenting these estimates last year, he bad mentioned to the committee, that the master-general of the Ordnance intended, in the course of the year, to propose an augmentation of seven hundred men to the artillery, by making the companies to consist of eighty instead of seventy men each. The inconvenience, however, which was felt from the want of this additional force of artillery-men, must continue to be felt for some time longer, and the proposed augmentation must be deferred till the next year. In the extra-ordinaries, the estimates amounted to 223,532l.: last year they amounted to 228,688l.; so that there was a diminution in that head of expense for the present year of 5,136l. In the unprovided head of account, which last year amounted to 1,713l., and this year amounted to 4,652l., there was an increase of 2,939l., occasioned by sending out the necessary supply of brass and iron mortars for the preservation of life from shipwreck, according to captain Manby's apparatus, and by replacing certain engineer's stores, arms, and accoutrements, that had been lost by shipwreck in the West Indies. That head of charge had been cut down as low as possible by the committee, and it was the desire of the master-general to keep it in its present state of reduction. As to Ireland, the estimates for this year were 126,382l.: last year they were 130,549l.; so that there was a diminution of 4,167l. in the estimates of this year. The expenditure for Ireland had, for the three or four last years, been nearly the same. There was, however, this year, an additional sum taken on account of the Irish survey, which he would briefly explain to 561 the committee. The sum taken last year to promote this object, was 27,690l.; this year it would be 30,000l. The additional sum was required by a new company that had been recently added to the two companies of sappers and miners already in that company. The experiment of employing common soldiers upon a survey of this nature had been most successful, and the system of taking men, who a few months ago could scarcely read or write, to employ them in measuring roads, and marking out the line of streams, was working in a manner that was calculated to confer benefit on the public, and credit on the parties who had suggested it. The survey was proceeding with the utmost rapidity. The officer engaged in superintending it hoped that it would be performed within the time specified; and he was happy to say, that when it was completed, it would be a splendid specimen of topographical accuracy. The maps would be published as fast as possible, and would be sold at a price not much exceeding the price of ordinary maps. The charge of barracks for Great Britain was this year 115,249l.; last year it was 147,087l.; so that there was a diminution in this charge since the last year of 31,838l. He would beg the attention of the committee whilst he stated how this diminution had arisen. Last year the House had voted 25,000l. for the king's-mews barracks. A like sum was to have been asked for this year; but as the adjoining buildings could not be removed in time for the erection of new ones during the ensuing year, the call for this would be deferred till the next. Next year the barrack estimate would be increased in the same proportion as it was now diminished. The charge for barracks in Ireland was this year 117,077l.; last year it was 124,636l.; so that there was a diminution in the estimate of the present year of 7,559l. He could not hold out any hope that there would be any diminution in this part of the estimates, for many of the barracks in Ireland at this moment required to be made wind and water tight. There was a charge of 10,000l. in the barrack estimate for Ireland this year, for the purpose of erecting a new recruiting dépôt in Dublin. The old dépôt was so inadequate to the purposes for which it was intended, and in such a state of progressive dilapidation, that it was deemed wiser to erect a new building, than to make the exten- 562 sive repairs in the old one. As to the estimate for military stores for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, it was 135,205l. for the present year; last year it was 164,416l.; so that this year it was 29,211l. less than it was last." That reduction had arisen in the following way: the House had come to a determination to allow each soldier in barracks an iron bedstead, instead of hutting four of them, as was formerly the case, in one wooden crib. The change had been productive of the most beneficial effects, on both the health and the morals of our soldiery, and had saved a vast consumption of life in those who were stationed in warm latitudes. This year a less sum would be taken for these bedsteads than formerly; and hence the diminution which he had pointed out to the committee. The last part of the estimate to which he wished to call their attention, was the supplementary estimate for the military works in the colonies. The grant proposed this year was 217,000l., and was greater than it was last year. He had last year explained to the committee, that though this was an additional item in the Ordnance Estimates, it was only a transfer to the Ordnance from the army extraordinaries and the colonial department. Though the master-general was most anxious to diminish the expenditure under this head, there were certain military works which it was requisite, at any expense, to put upon a proper foundation. The heaviest charge was for the new works in the citadel of Quebec: 12,000l. had been taken for them annually for some years back. This year it was proposed to take 25,000l., and for this reason: In autumn, before the winter set in, it was necessary to erect a solid work of masonry over the works that were left incomplete, to protect them from the severity of the weather; and in spring it was necessary to displace that solid work of masonry, before the works commenced in the preceding year could be continued. A great loss of time and expense was thus incurred in building up and pulling down that which was ultimately of no use to the works erected. It was therefore determined, that whatever work should hereafter be erected in Canada, should be erected, if possible, in one season, as it was clear that the sooner the work was executed, the less was the expense. It was on that account that he proposed to take 30,000l. this 563 year for this work, instead of 12,000l., which he had taken in former years. In three years the work, he expected, would be completed. There was, on the whole, a reduction of 104,000l. on the present estimate, as compared with the estimate of last year; and he hoped the committee would feel gratified with that reduction, especially as there was an increase of numbers in part of the establishment. With regard to the resolution for defraying the salaries of the principal officers of the Ordnance, the amount specified in it was lower than the estimate of last year by 3,176l. This reduction was occasioned in consequence of the last master-general not drawing any salary from that department since he became commander-in-chief. The gallant officer concluded by moving, "That the sum of 48,476l. be granted, for defraying the salaries to the lieutenant-general, and the rest of the principal officers and clerks belonging to the office of Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-Mall, for the year 1827."

§ Mr. Hume
observed, that, looking to the whole of the estimate, there was not such a saving to the country as they had a right to expect. At the conclusion of the former peace, 18,000l. defrayed the expense of the artillery establishment at the Tower, and the military establishment in Westminster, but they now cost 96,000l. If these two establishments were united, it would effect a saving of at least 48,000l. He wished to know whether it was intended to unite them?

§ Sir H. Hardinge
admitted, that if such a union could be made, a saving would unquestionably be effected by it. But the thing was perfectly impossible; and for this reason—the military stores, arms, &c. were kept at the Tower, and must remain there. The finance committee, it was true, mentioned the dépôt at Woolwich as sufficient; but, he was prepared to contend, that it would be necessary, under all circumstances, to keep a large quantity of stores at the Tower. If they could remove the office of the Clerk of the Ordnance to Pall-Mall, there would also be a saving; but the rooms at Pall-Mall were already filled with clerks; and therefore, if an alteration were made, a new building must be erected. Thus in the very outset, a considerable expense would be incurred.

Mr. Baring
alluded to a rumour which he had heard of certain works that were going on in Lower Canada, and also of an 564 intention to erect a line of forts on the river St. Lawrence. He wished to know whether these projects were to be carried on without any information being given to the House on the subject?

§ Sir H. Hardinge
answered, that it was necessary to form a proper dépôt in Lower Canada, where, at present, there was not a place in which they could keep a canister of powder in safety. With respect to the second point, no intention existed to form such a line of defence as the hon. member had alluded to. In the course of the year 182.5, a commission which had been sent to that country recommended that, at certain points, works should be raised; but the defence of so extensive a frontier as had been mentioned was not contemplated. There were, undoubtedly, parts of that territory which required additional defence. With respect to Halifax, for instance, it was recommended, that quarters should be provided for a body of troops, and a proper building erected for the reception of a quantity of stores. These measures appeared to be necessary; because, if an enemy turned the sea-batteries, as the place was at present situated, the town must fall into his power. Besides, as Canada was locked up during a certain period of the year, it was proper that stores should be collected in places of safety. In Upper Canada, it was intended to erect a small work on the same model, of which an estimate would be furnished. It was not intended as a point d'appui, but as a military dépôt, where troops and stores might be established. As to a regular line of defence along the river St. Lawrence, no such thing was intended. Before any part of this recommendation was carried into effect, the total amount of the projected work would be estimated by the master-general, and the House would have an opportunity of at once discussing and deciding the question.

§ Mr. Hume
observed, that the items on account of Canada amounted to no less a sum than 51,475l. This was rather strange, after they had been told last night, that Canada was the finest country in the world: that it was rich in every species of produce; and yet, rich as it was, poor England was obliged to find money to support it. The inhabitants, it appeared, could not pay for the defence of their country. We had a losing trade with Canada; and we were likewise at the expense of keeping up forts to protect that 565 losing trade. The only chance of deriving benefit from the produce of that country was destroyed by the operation of the Corn-laws.

§ Sir H. Hardinge
said, that Canada, being an integral part of the British dominions, was as much entitled to protection as any other portion of the empire.

§ Mr. Hume
said Canada was but a colony, and stood in a very different situation from Ireland or Scotland.